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Ukraine Invasion: Part 17

998 replies

MagicFox · 27/03/2022 07:23

A new place for us to convene, thread 17.

OP posts:
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33
FreiasBathtub · 28/03/2022 09:24

At last I can make a useful contribution to the thread! Bild is a tabloid so bear in mind that it's probably stirring for headlines to a certain extent... as far as I can make out with my slightly rusty German a few hundred people travelled from Cologne to Bonn to lay flowers at a Soviet memorial. May be linked to a Russian-founded motorcycle gang. Although there were Russian flags and speeches, no 'Z' symbols were present or allowed, the whole thing seems pretty peaceful.

MarshaBradyo · 28/03/2022 09:26

@MagicFox

Have you seen the pro-invasion rallies in Germany?! Wtf is that about?
I haven’t seen them but how awful.
RedToothBrush · 28/03/2022 09:35

Kamil Galeev @kamilkazani
Some advice to Ukrainians:

1. Ukrainian hackers post Russian casualty numbers on Russian official websites and social media accounts. That's not bad. A better idea - post instructions for sabotage. For example, if you burn trackside relay cabinets, it will lead to huge delays

Russia is heavily reliant on railways. Russian autoroutes have always been of low quality (with few exceptions) and thanks to sanctions Russia will face difficulties with producing and repairing trucks. Railways sabotage will heavily undermine logistics and supply of Z-operation

Railways sabotage in Belarus is already so widespread that it's severely undermining supply of a northern Russian Z-army. In Russia it's less common. And yet, that's exactly what's happened yesterday - someone attempted to blow up a relay cabinet with a handmade bomb near Kaluga

Railway sabotage is great idea. First, it's small scale action which a regular guy can do. Just go and burn a relay cabinet. Second, it can inflict enormous damage. Third, railways are so long, it's just impossible to properly guard them all. Which makes them easy to attack

Consider that Russian military industry is very heavily concentrated in a few clusters. For example, MLRS systems like Grad are produced on Motovilihinskiye Zavody plant in Perm. Just one major production center in entire Russia - makes it easy to sabotage

Ofc this MLRS plant uses imported instruments. Their technologist mentioned Seco, Sandvick, Walter, Iscar, Mitsubishi, Ghuring, Botek and Tungaloy. He mentioned only one Russian plant which produces instruments of high enough quality - KZTS in Kirov. It's apparently a bottleneck

Btw: this also shows how important it is not to allow technological import into Russia. Polish activists did a great job blocking the trucks leaving to Belarus. Belarus has been the main hub for Russian smuggling since 2014. Now as it's blocked, they'll try to use Georgia I think

Transsiberian railway is a highly vulnerable communication line. It's the only viable way connecting European Russia with Siberia and with China. Thus it'll be highly important for smuggling and technological import Russia can't do without

On July 23, 2021 flood damaged a railroad bridge on the Transsiberian. As a result, 500 trains were delayed. Trade flows were disrupted: companies had to reduce their shipments by the railway by 50% between July 26-28. They didn't restore the normal schedule till mid August.

That shows how vulnerable is the critical infrastructure in Russia. My advice - make concise instructions with sabotage, especially railway sabotage, and post them on Russian official websites and social media accounts. It's way more efficient than posting casualty numbers

Not everyone in Russia agrees with Z-campaign. Here you see people in St Petersburg beating up a truck driver who put Z onto his truck

A guy in Voronezh tried burn down a military commissariat (recruiting station). He failed - they put the fire down, but his choice of aim was emotionally motivated and inefficient. Infrastructure sabotage is much better. Make instructions with visuals and post on official media

2. If possible, target Russian military and National Guard on social media and send them standard instructions on how to avoid being sent to Ukraine. Which pretexts you can use, what instruments you have. No moral preaching, just - you can tell them A, B, C and they'll fuck off

3. Make public pressure on Western companies that refuse to leave the Russian market. French supermarket chain Auchan, and German Globus told they aren't leaving. Pressure them publicly, make it impossible for them to remain. That's important for increasing the systemic shock

4. Make pressure on European governments to stop railway shipments from Europe to China through Russia. Yeah, they're still going, though their number decreased. And I strongly suspect they'll be used for smuggling vital European components for Russian military industry

5. It's time to start talking with minority POWs, check their views and recruit those who could potentially change sides. Russian army heavily relies on minorities as cannon fodder. You know which region drafted the most people in Central Military District in 2021? Bashkortostan

In 2021 when they lacked few hundred recruits to meet the quota, local ruler (a Kremlin man) ordered not to break "old traditions of military draft". They'd broke the law in every way forcing recruits into the army. That's how Moscow is getting cannon fodder for its imperial wars

Moscow is using quite a wide range of minorities in Ukraine. Some examples of soldiers who are either KIA or captured, I'm not always sure. This guy is either a Tatar or a Bashkir from Bashkortostan

This one is a Kazakh from Astrakhan. Despite being just 14% of Astrakhan Oblast population, ethnic Kazakhs comprise 86% of Astrakhan casualties in Ukraine. Being a poor rural minority they naturally become a cannon fodder

A captured Crimean Tatar serving in the Russian army. Crimean Tatars are heavily oppressed in Russia. After annexation new authorities started destroying their houses, disappearing their activists and random people. Their position is way worse than that of Kazan Tatars

My advice - approach minority POW and check their views. Then choose those who can change sides and train them in special companies/batallions. With Russia spiralling to chaos, their impact can be huge. Remember, without Czechoslovak Legion there would be no Civil War in Russia

Apart from recruiting minorities according to ethnic principle, it might make sense to use regional one. Identify critical regions in Russia that are weak links in a chain and create companies out of their recruits. My advice - Far East and South (Krasnodar, Rostov, Stavropol)

Let me quote Guicciardini

"I often noticed during the wars that people didn't carry out necessary actions thinking it's too late. And yet, later it would turn out, it was the high time for it. Things go much slower than we expect. That should serve as a warning"

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2022 09:50

More reports of troops withdrawal in addition to the one in Sumy region.

Two battalions of the 106th air-paratrooper division which suffered significant losses during recent Ukrainian counterattacks from around Kyiv to Belarus

Source: Gen. Staff of UAF.

A regrouping or a more distinct concerntration on certain areas as a target rather than the whole of Ukraine?

Chase22 · 28/03/2022 09:56

.

Thereisnolight · 28/03/2022 10:09

.

AngelsForever · 28/03/2022 10:14

www.stimson.org/2022/u-s-military-assistance-to-ukraine/

Sorry if this has been posted but I found this interesting...

DuncinToffee · 28/03/2022 10:25

Reports coming in that Russia attacking to the east and northwest of Kyiv, trying to take key roads and settlements. In the city center, a constant rumble of not-too-distant explosions this morning.

'Change of tactics' yet another lie it seems.

MurderAtTheBeautyPageant · 28/03/2022 10:27

@PerkingFaintly

Indeed.

So I'm going to stick to my assessment of Marina Ovsyannikova having done a damn brave thing and now trying to keep herself and her family alive and not (very) tortured.

It's something we may have to get used to seeing: resistance followed by mitigating statements. I'm not going to hate on folk who do that.

Yes, good point. She may have been released under condition she now starts speaking out against sanctions etc. Both scenarios seem plausible so I'll keep that in mind.
DuncinToffee · 28/03/2022 10:27

BBC reporting

Ukraine has no plans to open any humanitarian corridors to evacuate civilians from cities under siege on Monday, the Deputy Prime Minister has said.

Iryna Vereshchuk said the decision was taken because of intelligence reports warning of possible Russian "provocations" along the routes.

Safe corridors have been set up from Mariupol, Sumy and towns and villages outside the capital Kyiv which are currently surrounded or almost surrounded by Russian forces.

However, Russian shelling previously prevented the evacuation of civilians from besieged cities, throwing attempted evacuations into chaos.

PerkingFaintly · 28/03/2022 11:17

More intimidation of journalists in Russia:

War in Ukraine: Anti-war Russians intimidated on their doorsteps
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60886147

notimagain · 28/03/2022 11:20

@DuncinToffee

Reports coming in that Russia attacking to the east and northwest of Kyiv, trying to take key roads and settlements. In the city center, a constant rumble of not-too-distant explosions this morning.

'Change of tactics' yet another lie it seems.

Maybe, maybe not, we will have to wait and see.

The Russians maintaining significant pressure on and around around Kiev itself means the Ukrainians can’t even to begin to think about moving some of their forces from the capital and out to the east/south east.

I’d be pretty sure that is something they would like to do to help out their units under pressure in that part of the country.

Ijsbear · 28/03/2022 11:47

Just how heavily are the Ukranians outnumbered, does anyone know? Though a lot will depend on equipment and munitions as well I suppose

Ijsbear · 28/03/2022 11:51

... which is probably not the brightest question to ask, even on Mumsnet. Ahem. Sorry.

notimagain · 28/03/2022 12:51

@Ijsbear

... which is probably not the brightest question to ask, even on Mumsnet. Ahem. Sorry.
Anybody’s guess here….open sources would suggest overall Russia had about a 5:1 advantage in terms of raw military numbers if you just look at the national numbers.

OTOH, where it matters on the ground in Ukraine I doubt the ratio would generally be anything like that.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2022 12:54

Max Fras
A terrifying despatch from Russian-occupied Kherson from one of the few remaining independent newspapers in Russia - @novaya_gazeta @mirrorsbreath - want to know what awaits Ukrainians living in the brave new Russkiy Mir? Read on

novayagazeta.ru/articles/2022/03/26/kherson
[rtb: article can be translated via Google translate]

Heard of the new 'Kherson People's Republic' announced by Russia? Well guess what, it has been imposed by Russian Army - the (Russian-dominated) Kherson Regional Council met to vote on the proposal and voted against it - 44:6 (with 50 out of 64 members present)

Prices of most basic food items in Kherson have doubled, some tripled. Russian Army won't allow any humanitarian aid to come to Kherson from the Ukrainian side, despite local shortages and people queuing for 2-3 days to get food

Kherson local residents protesting against the Russian occupation are brutally repressed, Russian Army uses tear gas on peaceful protesters and has already kidnapped ("arrested") dozens of them, taken to a secret prison site

Social networks are full of pleas for help in finding kidnapped relatives, mostly men protesting against Russian occupation - some have been n kidnapped in broad daylight in central Kherson despite several witnesses

Novaya Gazeta established that Russian soliders in Kherson are on the hunt for Ukrainian security officials, soldiers, veterans, civil society activists, journalists, Telegram channel authors, and even volunteers

According to some former Russian "secret prison" inmates (in Kherson), Russian soldiere are mistreating those held there, including two foreigners - one from Spain, one from the Netherlands, the latter being gravely ill and without any medical attention

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2022 12:56

@DuncinToffee

BBC reporting

Ukraine has no plans to open any humanitarian corridors to evacuate civilians from cities under siege on Monday, the Deputy Prime Minister has said.

Iryna Vereshchuk said the decision was taken because of intelligence reports warning of possible Russian "provocations" along the routes.

Safe corridors have been set up from Mariupol, Sumy and towns and villages outside the capital Kyiv which are currently surrounded or almost surrounded by Russian forces.

However, Russian shelling previously prevented the evacuation of civilians from besieged cities, throwing attempted evacuations into chaos.

I have a friend waiting on a family who need a humanitarian corridor to get out. She's agreed to be their sponsor and has applied for visa.

I am desperately hoping things change soon.

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2022 13:21

Dr Peter Caddick-adams @militaryhistori
#Ukraine️ : following missile strikes on UKR's fuel reserves last week (Lviv, etc.), Germany, Poland & USA will supply replacement diesel fuel. This will offset shortages, impacting on agriculture, as well as military ops, & may help mitigate rising food prices throughout EUR

Natsku · 28/03/2022 13:42

If anyone is interested in how a county can prepare for invasion. It involves so much more than just military preparations, I had no idea how much business is involved.
www.ft.com/content/c5e376f9-7351-40d3-b058-1873b2ef1924?sharetype=blocked

DuncinToffee · 28/03/2022 13:42

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56720589
Why has Russia invaded Ukraine and what does Putin want?
By Paul Kirby
BBC News

When Vladimir Putin shattered the peace in Europe by unleashing war on a democracy of 44 million people, his justification was that modern, Western-leaning Ukraine was a constant threat and Russia could not feel "safe, develop and exist".
But after more than a month of bombardment, thousands of deaths in ruined cities and the displacement of 10 million people inside Ukraine and beyond, the questions remain: what is his aim and is there a way out?

RedToothBrush · 28/03/2022 13:45

Iuliia Mendel @IuliiaMendel
Ukraine's deputy defense minister said Monday that Russian forces were attempting to establish a "corridor" around the Ukrainian capital to block supply routes, amid continued fighting around Kyiv's suburbs.

Not just supply routes but exit routes.

This is where more drones and MiGs would be handy...

Tuba437 · 28/03/2022 13:56

What are peoples thoughts on the way this is progressing now?

I am hopeful with some troops starting to withdraw. I know it will be bad for the Eastern regions to just concentrate there but it should hopefully give some restbite to the other regions.

People are worried about backing Putin in to a corner. The thing he has on his side is that the aims of the invasion were all very subjective.

Regardless of how the Russians have done, Putin can claim victory as Zelenskey has basically agreed on neutrality with no nuclear weapons. Considering there is no Nazification happening so nothing stops Putin from saying he has de nazified Ukraine and claim victory on that front.

Personally I think they will retreat to the Donbass and stay there. Claiming victory there by occupying it. Putin can then effectively claim victory on all fronts. I expect the issue if donbass and crimea to go on for years though.

MagicFox · 28/03/2022 14:01

@DuncinToffee

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56720589 Why has Russia invaded Ukraine and what does Putin want? By Paul Kirby BBC News

When Vladimir Putin shattered the peace in Europe by unleashing war on a democracy of 44 million people, his justification was that modern, Western-leaning Ukraine was a constant threat and Russia could not feel "safe, develop and exist".
But after more than a month of bombardment, thousands of deaths in ruined cities and the displacement of 10 million people inside Ukraine and beyond, the questions remain: what is his aim and is there a way out?

I hate this kind of unclear comment:

Tatiana Stanovaya of analysis firm RPolitik and the Carnegie Moscow Center fears a spiral in a new Cold War confrontation: "I have very firm feelings that we should get prepared for a new ultimatum to the West which will be more militarised and aggressive than we could have imagined."

As in, what? She obviously has an idea so why couch it in this obfuscatory way?

OP posts:
MagicFox · 28/03/2022 14:03

@Tuba437

What are peoples thoughts on the way this is progressing now?

I am hopeful with some troops starting to withdraw. I know it will be bad for the Eastern regions to just concentrate there but it should hopefully give some restbite to the other regions.

People are worried about backing Putin in to a corner. The thing he has on his side is that the aims of the invasion were all very subjective.

Regardless of how the Russians have done, Putin can claim victory as Zelenskey has basically agreed on neutrality with no nuclear weapons. Considering there is no Nazification happening so nothing stops Putin from saying he has de nazified Ukraine and claim victory on that front.

Personally I think they will retreat to the Donbass and stay there. Claiming victory there by occupying it. Putin can then effectively claim victory on all fronts. I expect the issue if donbass and crimea to go on for years though.

But their actions so far don't suggest concentrating on the Donbas. They're encircling Kyiv and bombing the shit out of western Ukraine. I think what they say means nothing, we can only go on what they do

OP posts:
notimagain · 28/03/2022 14:04

@RedToothBrush

Iuliia Mendel *@IuliiaMendel* Ukraine's deputy defense minister said Monday that Russian forces were attempting to establish a "corridor" around the Ukrainian capital to block supply routes, amid continued fighting around Kyiv's suburbs.

Not just supply routes but exit routes.

This is where more drones and MiGs would be handy...

Perhaps..

Drones I can see helping..

OTOH I’d say it’s hard to say what if any effect any MiGs might have…if the Ukrainians can use them (and the drones) to gain and maintain total air superiority of the airspace over Kiev and then go onto perform effective Close Air Support (CAS) to aid the ground forces then OK…but there’s a danger they could end up very quickly being so much cannon fodder for any air defence systems the Russians have actually managed to keep serviceable and get to the front.

It’s interesting (to me at least) that despite all the footage coming out of Ukrainian success on the ground we have seen little if any evidence of Ukrainian Air Force operating in the Ground Attack/CAS role in support of the besieged towns and cities…