Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 17

998 replies

MagicFox · 27/03/2022 07:23

A new place for us to convene, thread 17.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
ScrollingLeaves · 30/03/2022 22:38

@EsmaCannonball

Sky News has just described the missile strike on a residential block in Donestsk as another potential Russian war crime.

Did they say how they know it was Russian, (given Channel 4 said it was Ukrainian)?7

EsmaCannonball · 30/03/2022 22:57

No. It was only given a brief mention. Channel 4 said it was reportedly Russian but didn't confirm.

Ijsbear · 30/03/2022 23:02

What does Kadyrov actually do? he seems to have a cult of personality and pose a lot and no one that I've read says that he or his men actually -do- much.

There must be something, otherwise Putin wouldn't trust him this much.

Lets hope he goes the way of the other Lieutenant Generals.

Booklover3 · 30/03/2022 23:02
Sad
ScrollingLeaves · 30/03/2022 23:23

@EsmaCannonball

No. It was only given a brief mention. Channel 4 said it was reportedly Russian but didn't confirm.

@EsmaCannonBall
I have just watched Channel 4 News again and they definitely reported it as a Ukrainian strike against a residential block in Donetsk.
It is about 5 - 6 minutes in.

HappyWinter · 30/03/2022 23:23

Sorry for the horrible link, this is from the Guardian's live feed, hence pasting the article as well as the link. It's about Putin being misled on Russia's military performance.

Let's hope the Axis of Evil Garden Gnome stands in front of his troops waving his arms around like those generals.

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/30/russia-ukraine-war-latest-news-russian-troop-withdrawal-designed-to-mislead-says-ukrainian-military-live?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-6244abc88f08e8783ffb9605#block-6244abc88f08e8783ffb9605

Putin misled over Russian military performance – US and EU
David Smith

Putin is being misled about the Russian military’s performance in Ukraine, said several US and EU officials today.

Kate Bedingfield, director of communications at the White House, told reporters on Wednesday: “We have information that Putin felt misled by the Russian military which has resulted in persistent tension between Putin and his military leadership.”

“We believe that Putin is being misinformed by his advisers about how badly the Russian military is performing and how the Russian economy is being crippled by sanctions because his senior advisers are too afraid to tell him the truth.”

She added: “So, it is increasingly clear that Putin’s war has been a strategic blunder that has left Russia weaker over the long term and increasingly isolated on the world stage.”

A senior EU diplomat seconded Bedingfield’s point, saying that the US assessment was in line with Europe’s thinking, reported Reuters.

“Putin thought things were going better than they were. That’s the problem with surrounding yourself with ‘yes men’ or only sitting with them at the end of a very long table,” the diplomat said.

Russian troops were being told that they were taking part in a military exercise prior to the Ukraine invasion, but had to sign a document that extended their duties, said two European diplomats to Reuters.

“They were misled, badly trained and then arrived to find old Ukrainian women who looked like their grandmothers yelling at them to go home,” added one of the diplomats.

There are no signs at the moment that the situation could foster a revolt within the Russian military, but the situation is “unpredictable” and Western powers “would hope that unhappy people would speak up,” said the senior European diplomat to Reuters.

ScrollingLeaves · 30/03/2022 23:31

Re the misled Russian soldiers, this is interesting about the soldiers sent from the very poorest regions. They have been fighting 4000 miles from their home. They are Hindu.

Apropos questions yesterday about whether the 7 million roubles in return for their dead sons seems worth it, it seems here in Buryatia they feel the loss strongly. But the young men here earn so little a month that they are tempted to join the army where they will earn so much more.

Coffins in Buryatia: Ukraine invasion takes toll on Russia’s remote regions | Russia | The Guardian

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/30/coffins-in-buryatia-ukraine-invasion-takes-toll-on-russias-remote-regions
amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/30/coffins-in-buryatia-ukraine-invasion-takes-toll-on-russias-remote-regions

EsmaCannonball · 31/03/2022 00:01

There doesn't seem to be any independent verification that the strike in Donetsk was Ukrainian, only Russian claims. I'm just a bit sceptical that Russia is claiming Ukraine is deliberately targeting its own citizens right when they (Russia) are regrouping in Belarus for an attack on the Donbas. Donetsk citizens encouraging Ukraine to retake the region doesn't play well for the Russian narrative.

tobee · 31/03/2022 00:31

This from NYT on Tuesday:- What if Putin Didn't Miscalculate?
(apologies if already posted)

www.nytimes.com/2022/03/29/opinion/ukraine-war-putin.html

ScrollingLeaves · 31/03/2022 00:45

“tobee

This from NYT on Tuesday:- What if Putin Didn't Miscalculate?
(apologies if already posted)

www.nytimes.com/2022/03/29/opinion/ukraine-war-putin.html“

@tobee

that is convincing and harrowing.

( I could not read that link but was able to find the article by putting the title in a browser.)

PerkingFaintly · 31/03/2022 00:56

Director of GCHQ's speech today in Australia. As you might expect, he talks about aspects of the information war, but also about the future and China.

Director GCHQ Sir Jeremy Fleming's full speech from the Australian National University (Thursday 31st March 2022)
www.gchq.gov.uk/speech/director-gchq-global-security-amid-russia-invasion-of-ukraine

BreadInCaptivity · 31/03/2022 01:28

@ScrollingLeaves

“tobee

This from NYT on Tuesday:- What if Putin Didn't Miscalculate?
(apologies if already posted)

www.nytimes.com/2022/03/29/opinion/ukraine-war-putin.html“

@tobee

that is convincing and harrowing.

( I could not read that link but was able to find the article by putting the title in a browser.)

politicalwire.com/2022/03/30/what-if-putin-didnt-miscalculate/

Link without subscription

BreadInCaptivity · 31/03/2022 01:29

@ScrollingLeaves

“tobee

This from NYT on Tuesday:- What if Putin Didn't Miscalculate?
(apologies if already posted)

www.nytimes.com/2022/03/29/opinion/ukraine-war-putin.html“

@tobee

that is convincing and harrowing.

( I could not read that link but was able to find the article by putting the title in a browser.)

Sorry- better link

www.infobae.com/en/2022/03/30/what-if-putin-didnt-miscalculate/?outputType=amp-type

Confusedmonkey · 31/03/2022 01:34

Does anyone know if we can donate to help fund living costs for Ukrainians awaiting UK visas in Europe? Thought someone on this thread might know.

I have of course donated to the well publicised appeals for Ukraine and maybe there isn't really anywhere else reputable to donate. However, as with the recent mess in Afghanistan, I am heartbroken that the UK does not seem able to process visas fast enough to help desperate people.

I have been reading about people having to return to Ukraine, as they don't have funds to wait for promised British visas in neighbouring countries. I can't easily host someone due to lack of space and a young child, but I could help with accommodation costs for a bit in Europe. Does anyone know of a way we can donate to help with this? I am horrified that people who have been matched with generous hosts in the UK are now destitute or forced to return to a war zone due to excessive bureaucracy in the UK and would like to help if I can.

WeAreTheHeroes · 31/03/2022 06:47

That NYT article makes interesting, if chilling reading. Hopefully those negotiating on Ukraine's behalf are aware of this possibility.

strawberriesarenot · 31/03/2022 07:27

If Putin wanted to use chemical, biological or nuclear weapons on Kyiv he would surely be moving his troops back in this way.

Natsku · 31/03/2022 07:29

What will Putin do about those who have misled him, or will he have to do nothing because he needs to pretend the war is going according to plan? I wonder.

Though that NYT article is interesting, wonder how likely it is. I'm still more inclined to think its the other way and that Putin did miscalculate based on poor information but who knows.

meditrina · 31/03/2022 07:52

@Natsku

What will Putin do about those who have misled him, or will he have to do nothing because he needs to pretend the war is going according to plan? I wonder.

Though that NYT article is interesting, wonder how likely it is. I'm still more inclined to think its the other way and that Putin did miscalculate based on poor information but who knows.

That assumes it is literally and fully correct that he has been misled

(Since the dodgy dossier, no-one would believe that we wouldn't sex up information to support our cause)

Natsku · 31/03/2022 07:59

I do reckon there's at least an element of truth in it along with the usual element of embellishment.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2022 08:03

Ljsbear, Kamil Galeev did a thread about the tiktok gnome and why he was important to the war effort (propaganda basically) to legitimise and glorify it. He also gives it a face of credibility because of how westerners like elon musk have interacted with him. As a solider hes crap. But as a pr agent hes fantastic.

Anyway

Ministery of Defense @defencehq
(1/3) Despite Russian statements indicating an intended reduction of military activity around Chernihiv, significant Russian shelling and missile strikes have continued.

(2/3) Russian forces continue to hold positions to the east and west of Kyiv despite the withdrawal of a limited number of units. Heavy fighting will likely take place in the suburbs of the city in coming days.

(3/3) Heavy fighting continues in Mariupol, a key objective of Russian forces, however Ukrainian forces remain in control of the centre of the city.

Alexandra2001 · 31/03/2022 08:23

No one has any idea if Putin has been misled or whether, instead, he ignored military advice not to invade!

What we do know is the Russian military model is take a long time and bomb from distance into submission i.e Chechnya and Syria and thats what they are doing in Ukraine.

So until the shelling stops and Russia withdraws, its business as usual as far as Russia is concerned.

Sunnierdays · 31/03/2022 08:54

@ScrollingLeaves that’s so sad !! I keep looking at my teenage sons thinking it could be them sent to fight an awful war like this !! They’re all so young and naive Sad

prettybird · 31/03/2022 09:13

The "real" motivation behind Putin's invasion (the energy rich East and access to the coast line) and the possibility that he's been misled about the readiness and performance of the Russian Army are not mutually incompatible ConfusedSad

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2022 09:19

BBC Live feed this morning

Putin not being told the truth on Ukraine - UK intelligence agency

The head of the UK's cyber and security agency, GCHQ, believes Russia has massively misjudged the situation in Ukraine and some of Vladimir Putin’s advisers are not telling him the truth.

Sir Jeremy Fleming has given a rare speech during a visit to Australia in which he said that Russian soldiers – short of weapons and morale – had refused to carry out orders, sabotaged their own equipment and even accidentally shot down their own aircraft.

Putin's advisers are afraid to tell him the truth, he said, but what's going on and the extent of these misjudgments must be crystal clear to the regime.

"It all adds up to the strategic miscalculation that Western leaders warned Putin it would be. It's become his personal war, with the cost being paid by innocent people in Ukraine and, increasingly, by ordinary Russians too."

Sir Jeremy also said there were risks for China in being too closely aligned with Russia.

Beijing’s aspirations to become a leading player on the global stage would not be served by being associated with a regime in Moscow that had willfully and illegally ignored global rules, he said.

Here's a summary of the other points he covered:

President Volodymyr Zelensky's information operation has been extremely effective
Mercenaries, including the Wagner group, will have an effect on the outcome of the conflict
Many of them will be used as "cannon fodder" to limit Russian deaths
Hacking and ransomware groups have pledged allegiance to both sides
This makes things very complicated and in some ways beyond the control of governments

Why US and UK may have coordinated views on Kremlin tensions

Gordon Corera
Security correspondent, BBC News

The GCHQ Director’s comments that Putin’s advisers are afraid to tell him the truth align closely with those put out by US officials a little earlier.

They suggested he was being misled about both the military and economic situation Russia faces and that there was tension between the Kremlin and the Russian Defence Ministry.

The timing suggests a coordinated push by London and Washington to get this message across.

The two countries' spy agencies have so far been shown to have a good insight into what’s going on inside the Kremlin – warning that a major invasion was coming before it started and that Putin was misjudging what he might face.

They may be hoping to stoke some of the tensions inside Moscow as well as emphasise the Kremlin’s failings.

But they will also know that there are real consequences if Putin is still not getting ground truth about what is going on.

That could lead to further misjudgements including over-optimism about whether Russia can still win some kind of military victory – and that in turn could prolong the war and impact on negotiations.

It does have to be stressed that its noticable how closely British and American Intelligence are working together.

DFOD · 31/03/2022 09:26

@Alexandra2001

No one has any idea if Putin has been misled or whether, instead, he ignored military advice not to invade!

What we do know is the Russian military model is take a long time and bomb from distance into submission i.e Chechnya and Syria and thats what they are doing in Ukraine.

So until the shelling stops and Russia withdraws, its business as usual as far as Russia is concerned.

I 100% agree and your first paragraph is the likely aim of his misinformation to get us all distracted in theoretical plot twists - whilst your subsequent paragraphs are exactly what has happened in the past (atrocities on other territories) and what has happed in Ukraine to date and is therefore what will continue to happen.

Look at the current actions and his past MO. This is what is and will happen.

Ignore his words - they are just a tease, manipulative and a trap to distract to enable more destruction.

Swipe left for the next trending thread