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Ukraine Invasion: Part 17

998 replies

MagicFox · 27/03/2022 07:23

A new place for us to convene, thread 17.

OP posts:
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33
shreddednips · 30/03/2022 18:51

[quote lifesabitchandthenyoudie]@shreddednips please accept my apologies... it took me a good few minutes and several reads of the posts above to realise 'DM' was NOT your mother... (Blame MN!)

Thanks for all the updates, I'm off ill so happily lurking :)[/quote]
Oh 😆😆😆😆😆 that really made me laugh. As far as I know, my mother doesn't have any sources in the Swedish military. But you never know, it's a strange old world at the moment!

lifesabitchandthenyoudie · 30/03/2022 18:54

You certainly don't! (I could go on but then I'd have to kill you...)

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2022 18:58

Jade McGlynn @DrJadeMcGlynn
Does Russian aggression come from the West being threatening or from the West being weak?

I don’t think these options are mutually exclusive. In fact, i think that, for the Kremlin, they are interconnected…

The key word here is decadence. Putin and his advisers see the ‘West’ as a decadent power both in the sense of depravity, loss of moral compass, self-indulgence and in the sense of decaying/being on the way out

Last year’s National Security Strategy made this abundantly clear. The first few pages set out the Kremlin’s vision of the crumbling Western world order and how US& allies will lash out and go to extreme lengths to preserve their hegemony - especially cultural and ideological

There is a long section devoted to Western attempts to undermine Russian culture, history and values from the inside (thru internal enemies) and from outside thru media, films, books, etc.

This issue is presented as an existential one for Russia.

So, a weird logic emerges in which the West’s weakness, its greed, its refusal to kick out oligarchs or stand up for values by taking real financial hits (as per 2014) is evidence of its decadence. But this decadence, as it develops, is proof of growing danger

Russia expects Western decline to spur US and allies into ever more reckless attempts to shore up their power, culturally and militarily. It doesn’t entirely distinguish these two threats. Its enmity towards NATO is as much a geocultural one as anything else

Besides, the cultural decay (demonstrable as weakness b4 🇷🇺 aggression) increases the military threat.

This theme of cultural and moral decay is a constant in Putin’s speeches since at least 2012 and in Russian media which even now covers European and US social divisions with vim and vigour

Given the perceived correlation betw West weakness &threat, 🇷🇺 was always likely to strike out when it thought West was at optimal point of the weak/danger balance

But 🇷🇺 underestimated Western resolve to defend values (albeit not by a lot). They hugely underestimated Ukraine & forgot to factor in Russian decay - the (moral and otherwise) corruption that permeates many 🇷🇺 institutions and parts of society.

Ironically, while focussing so much on the symbiosis of Western decay and dangerousness, Russia itself came to embody this interconnection, as its authoritarian rot meant there was nobody brave enough to call out the madness and risks of invading Ukraine

(In this context Zelensky's Servant of the People becomes doubly interesting. It also explains a lot about how C4's Last Leg REALLY upset Putin and resulted in threats a few years back)

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2022 19:09

Slight expansion on whats been released to US press this evening

Sasha Ingber @SashaIngber
US official shares declassified intel with @Newsy:

-Putin felt misled by Russia's military
-Didn’t know it was using and losing conscripts in Ukraine
-IC belives Putin being misinformed on how badly his military is performing, senior advisors "too afraid to tell him the truth”
-Putin has been misinformed about how the Russian economy is being crippled by sanctions
-"There is now persistent tension between Putin and the [Russian Ministry of Defense], stemming from Putin’s mistrust in MOD leadership."

Michael Weiss @michaeldweiss
"One Russian general was reportedly killed in an airstrike after the Ukrainians located him by his cellphone signal, the New York Times reported."

Володимир Зеленський @ZelenskyyUa
Ukraine government official
Just finished an hour-long conversation with @POTUS. Shared assessment of the situation on the battlefield and at the negotiating table. Talked about specific defensive support, a new package of enhanced sanctions, macro-financial and humanitarian aid.

Christopher Miller @ChristopherJM
The US hadn’t had much insight into negotiations between Ukraine and Russia. But it sounds like Zelensky has briefed Biden on them now, following the latest round of talks yesterday in Turkey.

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2022 19:19

Christopher Miller @ChristopherJM
Dnipro Mayor Boris Filatov says the SE city of roughly 1 million residents has suffered a Russian missile strike. He isn't posting info about what was hit. Authorities have been increasingly cautious about posting info in immediate aftermath of attacks.

1dayatatime · 30/03/2022 19:49

@EsmaCannonball

Swedish television reporting that two Russian jets entering their airspace on March 16th were carrying nuclear weapons.
This really surprised me, it could be true and the SU 24 is nuclear capable but it would be a very strange thing to do. Also as other posters have said there is a big difference between capable of carrying nukes and actually carrying nukes.

The sources that are reporting it have all put it in commas and state "apparently carrying nuclear weapons ". Plus the UK sources are the likes of the Daily Mail, Express, The Sun. No serious papers or TV channels are reporting it.

It's generally not a good idea to go round carrying nukes unless you are intending on using them on account of the risk of the plane crashing (especially on an elderly SU24 designed 40 years ago), landing safely gets a bit more important to get right and it's pretty difficult to determine if the missile being carried is armed with a nuclear or a conventional warhead. Lastly it was reported on the 2nd March that the Russian aircraft were completely unarmed.

Personally I think it is slack journalism and as others posted mixing up capable of carrying nukes with actually carrying nukes.

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 30/03/2022 20:13

sources that are reporting it have all put it in commas and state "apparently carrying nuclear weapons ". Plus the UK sources are the likes of the Daily Mail, Express, The Sun. No serious papers or TV channels are reporting it.

The original report (TV4) does not say 'apparently carrying nuclear weapons'. It says that their sources say the planes WERE equipped nuclear weapons AND that the Russian pilots themselves were clear that they were. Subsequent reports from other outlets are using 'apparently' as they are second hand reporting.

Igotjelly · 30/03/2022 20:13

Sky News now reporting that the planes were indeed equipped with nuclear warheads.

ScrollingLeaves · 30/03/2022 20:20

Channel 4 News tonight said that there had been a reported Ukrainian missile strike on an apartment block in Russian held Donetsk.

Does anyone know more about this?

Wrongkindofovercoat · 30/03/2022 20:27

Why would the Russians take their nuclear warheads on a jolly jaunt into Swedish airspace ?

TiddyTidTwo · 30/03/2022 20:35

I’m disappointed in the statement that uk won’t provide any commitment to aiding Ukraine in the future. No they’re not nato, if they were they’d not need those assurances and pacts making. They don’t need America if they can get uk and at least some of Europe to agree to be their back up. Without that they’ll only be here again but with less support to assist them in winning. That doesn’t sit comfortably with me

Me neither. Incredibly disappointing. Germany are willing to step up as guarantor as long as a ceasefire is in place. Only takes a few of us to form something meaningful, surely?

jgw1 · 30/03/2022 20:35

@Wrongkindofovercoat

Why would the Russians take their nuclear warheads on a jolly jaunt into Swedish airspace ?
You may as well ask why the Russians would invade a peaceful sovereign nation that was not threatening them.
ScrollingLeaves · 30/03/2022 20:36

Missile strike on Donetsk kills two - YouTube

m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0knb1RrcYc

This was apparently a Ukrainian missile strike.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 30/03/2022 20:41

@jgw1 because they can ? sabre rattling ?

megynhelena · 30/03/2022 20:52

@ScrollingLeaves

Missile strike on Donetsk kills two - YouTube

m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0knb1RrcYc

This was apparently a Ukrainian missile strike.

I am steering clear of these threads now but just happened to see this, so will answer. There have been missiles going into Donetsk for years, from Ukrainian forces. This isn't a one-off. There is reams and reams of footage. It is well known as far as i know, one Zelensky's pledges when he got in was to end the war in Donbas. Hope that helps.
ScrollingLeaves · 30/03/2022 20:58

@megynhelena
Thank you

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2022 21:00

@TiddyTidTwo

I’m disappointed in the statement that uk won’t provide any commitment to aiding Ukraine in the future. No they’re not nato, if they were they’d not need those assurances and pacts making. They don’t need America if they can get uk and at least some of Europe to agree to be their back up. Without that they’ll only be here again but with less support to assist them in winning. That doesn’t sit comfortably with me

Me neither. Incredibly disappointing. Germany are willing to step up as guarantor as long as a ceasefire is in place. Only takes a few of us to form something meaningful, surely?

Four or five possible reasons i can think of: one the idea is to make it EU led (which doesn't include us - we quit EUFOR). Two: the uk doesn't feel enough other big players have stepped up to the plate yet (i note Germany saying they will after the uk - perhaps to drive that). The uk may feel they are likely to get it dumped on them otherwise. Three Uk is felt to be too much of a problem for a deal cos Putin gets pissy about us and we are too NATO for their taste (think back to Germany into four sectors post WWII which is the era Putin lives in). Four we genuinely don't want to do it. Five we think we wont need to do it or our current objective is more about defeat Russia rather than save Ukraine - Zelensky made the comment during interview with the economist that was too the effect that he wasn't yet sure if we were group 1 (wanted to help Ukraine but didn't mind if the war dragged on at the expense of Ukrainian lives if it weakened russia) or part of the anti-fascist group yet and we had something to prove to him.
TiddyTidTwo · 30/03/2022 21:41

Thanks Red

RedToothBrush · 30/03/2022 21:49

The Telegraph @telegraph
Britain may send armoured Land Rovers on a mercy mission to the besieged city of Mariupol, Boris Johnson has said.

It would mark the first time foreign troops entered Ukraine since the conflict began

Hahaha! Ok then.

Don't let Macron get all the good PR for trying to sort a humanitarian mission to Mariupol.

This is like the (multiple) time Johnson has talked about a bridge/tunnel to Northern Ireland.

Not going to happen but makes nice column inches.

Its an horrifically cynical exploitation of the situation.

Sorryfornamechanging · 30/03/2022 21:55

If the nuclear warheads story is true that’s just utterly mad. I’m usually prone to anxiety but I can’t even get anxious about it!

eglantine7 · 30/03/2022 21:56

"Putin, Russia and the West"
On BBC 4 now

elephantmarchingin · 30/03/2022 22:05

'Due to the conflict in Ukraine, the Swedish Air Force reportedly had an increased preparedness and could see early on that the pilots were heading for the skies over Gotland, a Swedish island in the Baltic Sea.
The country's armed forces declined to comment officially on whether the two attack planes were equipped with nuclear weapons, but told the network that the violation of airspace must have been deliberate.'

This is what Sky have reported. Seems that Sweden officials have not explicitly stated they had nuclear weapons attached

elephantmarchingin · 30/03/2022 22:05

Also a lot of 'sources' reveal that.... no idea what the sources are

ScrollingLeaves · 30/03/2022 22:25

Putin has promoted Kadyrov (evil gnome) to be Lieutenant General.

Apparently Kadyrovsky has said ‘We should finish what we started.’ I wonder how much control Putin has over him, or could he keep things going on his own volition?

Putin promotes Chechen leader with ties to murder of Kremlin critic | Ukraine | The Guardian

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/30/putin-promotes-chechen-leader-with-ties-to-of-kremlin-critic

EsmaCannonball · 30/03/2022 22:27

Sky News has just described the missile strike on a residential block in Donestsk as another potential Russian war crime.