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Ukraine Invasion: Part 17

998 replies

MagicFox · 27/03/2022 07:23

A new place for us to convene, thread 17.

OP posts:
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33
blueshoes · 29/03/2022 00:29

1dayatatime thanks for the tank analysis. If that is the case, why did Zelensky recently call on NATO allies to provide planes and tanks to Kyiv to defend itself. That said, he seemed more keen on planes.

SenoraMiasma · 29/03/2022 00:29

I think people need to back off @AngelsForever

Getting quite nasty and these threads so far have been very helpful. I think she’s just thinking out loud and following all the different messaging and asking for intelligent answers to questions so she can stay on the right side of things. Not everyone can manage following the constant noise of 24/7 media without getting a bit bewildered at times.

AngelsForever · 29/03/2022 00:41

Thanks I think your getting my questions,

@DrBlackbird I didn't refer to escalation as in the corridors I mean it is atrocious they are being blocked to leave! I mean more the escalation to how this began what wound putin up so much to feel the need to torture the Ukrainians and Russian soldiers and blame 2014. He's a tyrant...something has ticked him off and I think it leads to USA...im probably well off and im not trying to offend anyone - and when I say countries I don't mean the people I mean the governments...

Sorry for rambling!

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2022 00:41

Re: Azov I’ve read it is about 1000 strong and the far right neo-nazi element represents about 2% of the country. This is a small proportion compared to some other countries in Europe.

www.npr.org/2022/03/01/1083677765/putin-denazify-ukraine-russia-history

www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

American far right white suprematists are about 9%. One American neo-Nazi group is lead from Russia by Rinaldo Nazzarro.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-neo-nazi-support-american-public-charlottesville-white-supremacists-kkk-far-right-poll-a7907091.html

www.bbc.com/news/world-51236915

Only this year Priti Patel banned some white supremecist groups in the U.K.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006.amp

I have just seen quite a few articles are current about Azov. One (The Week) llsaying because they are such skilled fighters they are important in the defence of Ukraine against Russia and their support could be growing as Ukrainians are currently so unified by their national feelings. So Putin could cause a growth in Asov.
www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/europe/956229/is-there-risk-neo-nazi-insurgency-ukraine

Re war crimes:
A very nasty example reported to day of a man killed in front of his wife and children and the mother then raped multiple times in front of the chil. I read that in the Times today which I don’t have a link to. Here it is reported in the Guardian.
www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/27/russian-soldiers-raping-and-sexually-assaulting-women-says-ukraine-mp

blueshoes · 29/03/2022 00:54

scrollingleaves I saw that war crime being reported. The utter horror at the evil unleashed on innocent civilians by an illegal invasion. Words fail me.

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2022 01:24

Reality check: war crimes happen in all wars. And are committed by both sides.

But we also need to remember that war crimes are a western social construct. They are a series of social values we (try) and impose (on ourselves and others).

Many countries have signed up to the concept. But actually are untested in practice.

America has both passed and failed on its own tests on this, but has never been really held accountable for those failings. I actually think theres a problem with this. (Which has ramifications in terms of this conflict).

There was some talk a while back about how the USSR was never held accountable for its war crime post WWII like Germany was, and how this almost allowed an arrogance to develop over time. And now thats a festering problem.

By the same token, the sometimes dubious actions of Americans is now a wedge that Russia can push back on, in other to stop sanctions and to weaken US soft power around the globe.

Argument about fighting for democracy and freedom have rather bitten us on the ass. This has long term geopolitical fall out. So we can't ignore the subject.

America is also a nonsignatory to a number of weapons treaties banning certain practices. Cluster bombs is one of the big ones. America has never agreed to stop using or supplying them. So it frustrates me when there's been so many conversations about Russia’s 'illegal' use of them. Neither Russia nor Ukraine are signatories either. However it makes little sense to cluster bomb your own country because you automatically endanger your own civilians. Landmines is the other big one. The US and Russia have not agreed to ban them. Ukraine actually has. (The UK has banned both)

Having said all this, there is more effort given to preventing civilian deaths by the US than by Russia who have a policy of seeing them as an inconvenience that gets in the way or worse - a legitimate target to demoralise the enemy. Where the US failed it has had fall out. But perhaps not enough.

All this DOES matter to this war, because it has an effect on how the US and Russia have won support / demanded a response.

The failure of the west to see this as a problem is a massive blunder. Its grossly misunderstood how important this is. Its right up there with 'putin didn't know how the levels of support he had in Ukraine' stupid.

Chain reactions and ripples.

Human Rights therefore is this fuzzy concept imposed by the west who haven't always kept their own houses in order.

Putin will drive this point over and over again...

AngelsForever · 29/03/2022 01:50

@RedToothBrush

Thank you for your well explained and non biased or bullying comment for little old me.

There's so many components to this

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2022 02:04

“Human Rights therefore is this fuzzy concept imposed by the west who haven't always kept their own houses in order.”

Yes, I am under no illusion anymore. Though brought up on war films of British and American heroes, officers and gentlemen as opposed to evil others I was very shocked to learn on looking into it how many rapes were committed by them even on women from their own side. Not of course like the Russians, but not what we would like to acknowledge.

I wonder in military training if very young soldiers, who start out innocent, are taught that inside all of us there can be a rage and violence that could come in an uncontrollable surge that you wouldn’t know you were capable of especially if you were exhausted, hungry and possibly drugged up on amphetamines - and you had already broken the taboo against killing. Are any in the U.K. forces taught how to know this lurks and what to do to stop it erupting?

I also watched interviews with Vietnam veterans.
One couldn’t get over the atrocities he’d committed at the Mi Lai massacre and eventually killed himself.

BreadInCaptivity · 29/03/2022 02:38

[quote DuncinToffee]Pretty amazing footage of young conscripts from the Donetsk "People's Republic" complaining that they have been sent to Ukraine's Sumy region as cannon fodder
twitter.com/niktwick/status/1508490884794441728?t=YGXcjx5mNT1NucyVXTHv-w&s=19[/quote]
Can anyone who speaks Russian confirm the dialogue?

jgw1 · 29/03/2022 07:01

I am saying at the beginning this was painted by the media in a very Russia bad, Ukraine good way.

One country invaded another.

Your post would make sense if it was Ukraine that had invaded Russia.

jgw1 · 29/03/2022 07:07

@CailleachGranda

The pro-Putin stuff had tailed off a bit on Mumsnet but looks like there is a bit of a resurgence
I was thinking that reading through the latest offerings. Have the Russian bot farms finally caught up with the kind of lines that might play well to the useful idiots who like to amplify all manner of conspiracy theories?
Alwayscheerful · 29/03/2022 07:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2022 07:14

Not of course like the Russians, but not what we would like to acknowledge.

We have a general problem in western society and politics with 'the inconvenient truth'. We adopted a culture of spin to disguise it rather than address the problems that inconvenient truths reveal. Its easier to ignore and to explain away than to make changes that are meaningful.

War is human society at its most extreme so I think it exposes these cracks in ways that other things don't. Equally there's often a more compelling reason to hide them during a war too unfortunately.

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2022 07:16

Samuel Ramani @samramani2
This quote by Poland's Foreign Minister Zbigniew Rau is spreading virally in the Russian media space:

"The Russian president is demanding unconditional surrender from Kiev , and the international community has only one way to influence this: to arm Ukraine to the teeth."

David Henig @davidheniguk
This is what the 'appease Putin, he's dangerous' camp are missing. Russia is going to blame its failure to remove Ukraine on NATO, not its own failure to realise the plan was never achievable. Any Russian compromise would be short term and tactical. It is Putin or Ukraine.

jgw1 · 29/03/2022 07:20

[quote Alwayscheerful]@BreadInCaptivity [/quote]
If this video is genuine, I wonder whether opinion in Luhansk and Donetsk might be less pro Russian now that it was prior to the latest invasion.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 29/03/2022 07:27

Can anyone who speaks Russian confirm the dialogue?

It is what they are saying. "we are Russian, from Donbass, we're 18 yo, we have no paperwork, no arms, we have no idea what we are supposed to be doing here, and are bosses have no idea either and we are all going to be fucked in the arse". Not word for word, but that's the gist of is. They are also swearier than MN used to be on a Friday night. Every second word if fucking, cunt or dick.

More victims of this senseless war.

Inkanta · 29/03/2022 07:28

We have a general problem in western society and politics with 'the inconvenient truth'. We adopted a culture of spin to disguise it rather than address the problems that inconvenient truths reveal. Its easier to ignore and to explain away than to make changes that are meaningful

Yes very true - good wisdom. I think we are very defended generally. Too proud or afraid to face truths and defending all the time.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 29/03/2022 07:28

Oh sorry, see someone's done a professional job on this.

Adesignforstrife · 29/03/2022 07:29

Apropos of nothing:
“I don’t know what to believe anymore”.
This has literally been the aim of Russia’s political interference for years. They will happily fuel both sides of an argument just as long as everyone keeps arguing and allegiances fragment. Read “Nothing is true and everything is possible” by Peter Pomerantsev. Also going to recommend “The Puppet Master” on BBC Sounds again.

Ijsbear · 29/03/2022 07:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ijsbear · 29/03/2022 07:45

gah, missed quite a lot of posts, much too late.

meditrina · 29/03/2022 07:47

There has been little embedded journalism because it dangerous.

You are looking at the sort of warfare you saw in the former Yugoslavia, also in Europe in places where journalists can travel themselves if they want to.

It's not like being in a country where without the assistance of the forces you simply cannot access it, or where the host military are confident of keeping the media safe without compromise to their mission.

When there are no independent observers, all news coming out of a war zone should be treated as suspect.

And even then there will be bias. Because PsyOps are also a tool of war

Alwayscheerful · 29/03/2022 07:47

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Oh sorry, see someone's done a professional job on this.
From twitter
Ukraine Invasion: Part 17
TargusEasting · 29/03/2022 07:53

Lastly tanks are actually only really useful to takin on other tanks. The Ukrainians seem to be doing a good job on this with Western anti tank missiles.

Tanks have a far greater role than tank-on-tank. Pretty much anything at close quarter and line of sight. They support infantry (strong for morale), for example laying down smoke, IED clearance, and can disrupt local communications. A large part of the $7m+ or so cost is computerised warfare systems. The most modern tanks can withstand incoming missiles while simultaneously detecting, locating and firing off against the incoming firing position. Basically - if you fire an anti-tank weapon then grab your kit and move because that tank's systems are already alerted and can now work out where you are. British, French and US tanks are well suited to urban warfare and can destroy specific buildings and positions used by the enemy leading to less collateral damage - important for a defending army. The Russian tanks used in Ukraine are less sophisticated than Western kit, but if they are digging in then tanks would certainly yield quicker results for the UA to move them out. We are not getting all the information on UA losses, but they are going to be substantial. Western tanks would certainly save Ukrainian soldiers' lives and that is why they have asked for them.

Thereisnolight · 29/03/2022 07:56

With exceptions, most wars are about a smaller number of very rich men (both sides) trying to get richer.
Lots of collateral damage - posthumously decorated officers, mass-grave cannon fodder and at the very bottom, women and children.
Makes me sick.

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