“Getting ANY adult dog breed is strongly NOT recommended”

[tallulahtoo78]

From a dog expert interview on LBC discussing the utterly awful, tragic death of the 17 month old little girl.

I foster for a breed specific rescue and we work hard to figure out what the dogs who stay with us are like and what triggers them. The fact is you can't always believe what the previous owners say about behaviour and aggression. Our rescue will not rehome any dogs with a bite history and it is rare for them to rehome with young kids. The two I have at the moment are lovely and been very gentle with young kids when meeting outside (on short leash) but still they won't go to homes with young kids as it is too risky.

The 'no bad dogs only bad owners' thing makes me cringe. Like yeah, on paper, I agree... because when a dog attacks, it doesn't make them 'bad' in a moral way like it would a human, because they're animals that act on instinct and they don't have the same capacity to choose their actions and behaviours as a human, despite their intelligence.

But that's not what people are saying, they're claiming that the only time a dog will attack is if they're being raised improperly. When in reality even the best raised and trained and loved dog can attack, they're domesticated wild animals at the end of the day. We're so used to having domestic dogs we expect them to be perfect and to be completely safe, in a way that we wouldn't expect if we brought a wolf into our home. But you can never breed out the wild completely.

Yeah, I should have clarified that I don't think dogs who attack are "bad". You can't impose human morality on an animal that's led by its instincts.

I'll probably get slated but I also think ALL bull terrier's should be banned. And that includes the Staffordshire bull terrier that for some reason loads of people love.

They seem so popular, however, it's only particular types of people that seem to like them.

The LBC dog expert says no one should rehome an adult dog ever at all then?

So any dogs that aren't kept for life by the original owner for whatever reason even if the owner leaves the country or goes into a care home or dies then the dog gets put down? Really?? That's going to be a lot of healthy dogs put down and no more rescue centres or charities at all.

But it's OK to have a puppy.
Presumably there would then have to be some law that you agree to keep your puppy for life come what may or kill it as no one else will be allowed to rehome it when it's an adult

Makes no sense to me.
What makes sense is for rescue centres to carry out checks and only match the right dog to the right environment
And for less people to breed and buy puppies that then risk becoming unwanted adult dogs and more people to rehome the ones that are already existing in the world.

Note that this dog was bought and not rehomed by a charity.

Terribly sad. I have a rescue Staffie, I had her about a year and a half before my ooopsie baby. She’s a lovely dog but I’ve never ever trusted her with my child as her previous owners were elderly and don’t think she’s had much previous experience with young children. She also hates cats and isn’t great around other dogs.
DS is 3 now and knows he’s not to touch her, and I make sure they aren’t left in the same room together. She’s knocking on for 12 or 13. I don’t think she’d do anything but I’m not taking the chance.

He’s only recently started to understand about being gentle so he’s only recently been allowed to start stroking her back if he’s with one of us (when he was little he just wanted to try and pull her tail/ears or hug her so that’s why he’s not been allowed to touch her). They’ve happily co-existed and hopefully will continue to do so.

It’s a huge risk.

Something I see a lot on SM which makes me wince is photos of babies and toddlers “asleep” or curled up or hugging dogs. It seems particularly common with the more macho dogs (I had an Old English Mastiff so I’m not throwing shade on big breeds). It’s so irresponsible.

That’s not to say the family in the news did this and they have me deepest sympathy.

@UKRAINEwearewithyou

There is a recorded list of fatalities from dog attacks here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom

It is clear to see the predominant breeds that kill, hence a number of breeds were subsequently banned. Reading down the list of fatalities it's the same old same old ones.

There is a proposed study into dog attacks (bites as well as deaths) to see what the common factors are.

It's an incomplete and unreliable list.

Breed isn't routinely recorded in official dog attack statistics. It's biased towards only those incidents that the media considered worth of reporting, and the identification of breed is unreliable at best in those sources (some are notably types rather than breeds). There's a very obvious mismatch between the ONS totals for each year and the number of entries in the table.

I have no kids, a pedigree and my second rescue. My dogs are not allowed around young kids. It's not fair on either. Those awful social media photos of people with their dog right near a baby on the floor make me shudder. The caption is always some idiocy bout 'Chunk protecting his new brother.' Arseholes. You know nothing of the sort.

So I reckon this will turn out to be a badly treated dog that has been bought and sold like a commodity. I don't think we're saying they got a cockerpoo. The LBC guy sounds a bit of a twat without knowing the breed of the dog and how it had been raised etc., but I have to say its always sensible to think carefully about getting any dog with small children. Common sense really. I just have a feeling that common sense wasn't in good supply here

I’m not a dog person in the slightest and don’t know much about them and their behaviour. I just had a look at the list of fatal dog attacks that a PP linked to, and have a question. Can anyone tell me why the owner having an epileptic fit seems to have been the trigger for an attack in several cases?

@DoginAtent I know the rescue you mean and it should be shut down.

I wouldn't take in an adult dog of any breed and trust it with my child. But the breed and size of the dog does matter. Where I'm sure all breeds have the potential to bite certain breeds don't have the temperament or the strength to do significant damage.

Staffordshire bull terrier (and similar types) owners who ignore the facts and talk nonsense don't help matters. There's always comments along the lines of "my dogs lovely, look at the behaviour of chihuahuas" when a chihuahua isn't going to maul a child to death. Your dog might be lovely but don't dismiss the fact that it has the potential to kill an adult, the stakes are higher if you get it wrong than with other breeds.

@Easterbunnyiswindowshopping

Being tested to see if it is a banned breed...

I was attacked out of the blue and nearly killed as a child by a small lap dog that just bolted from its owner and went for my throat, I spent many years having reconstruction surgery.

I also grew up with a large cross of a banned breed that was a gentle, highly-trained working dog that wouldn't hurt a soul.

Banning certain breeds is stupid and thinking dogs are safe because they are little is the most dangerous and naive ignorance most people have.

Many lapdogs actually exhibit the most aggression and regardless of it their mouth is smaller they can still kill especially small children.

Why the actual fuck would you choose to have an animal around your tiny child, that you couldn’t overpower if you needed to?

Supervision makes no difference in these cases. If a large and powerful dog is going for your child, what exactly can you do about it?

Why? Just why do people put their children into these positions? Absolutely bloody selfish.

@DogInATent

Ok then so if the list of deaths in the UK recorded as due to dog attack is wrong can you link to the accurate data then? So many people just say something isn't correct but don't have any data to back up their claims... typically as you have done.

@Deadringer

When are people going to learn to keep dogs away from babies.

Shush, go away with your common sense. The usual reaction is MY dog would never hurt anyone, and you need help for your dog phobia.

IMO if a dog is assessed by a rescue as not suitable in a home with children then it should be euthanised.

If a dog isn’t suitable to be rehomed with children then presumably that is because the dog has some nervous/aggressive streak which means it is a risk to those wishing to rehome it. In that instance the dog isn’t IMO suitable for rehoming in any circumstance, and as it’s unfair to keep a dog in kennels for the rest of its life then euthanasia is IMO the best course of action.

Obviously that doesn’t go for all adult dogs, but let’s face it, plenty are advertised through rescues as “not suitable for homes with children.”

As for the parents, sorry but “they’ve lost their baby and that is enough punishment” isn’t good enough. Children die in all manner of circumstances which are as result of the parents. If you fail to strap your child in a car seat and then crash the car is the loss of the child punishment enough? No of course it isn’t.

questions need to be asked and the parents need to question what in God’s name made them go out and buy a dog which is renouned for being aggressive and capable of inflicting serious injury or death on a child.

And while of course there are other aggressive breeds, staffies are built in such a way that the damage they can inflict is far worse than say a Labrador.

And selling a dog over the age of 6 months should be illegal, with any sites, gumtree, pets for homes and the like being prosecuted along with the seller.

@QueenOfThorns

I’m not a dog person in the slightest and don’t know much about them and their behaviour. I just had a look at the list of fatal dog attacks that a PP linked to, and have a question. Can anyone tell me why the owner having an epileptic fit seems to have been the trigger for an attack in several cases?

Fear - they sense something is very wrong and get scared witless - think a sort of "attack is the best form of self defence" mentality.

@MalbecandToast

It says "bought" not rescued. Rescue places won't rehome with children for exactly this reason.

And yet rescues are berated on here for having rules and requirements for adoption.

Obviously not all dogs though as some can be trained to support a person having a fit, and some will just ignore it or be worried but run away etc.

Reputable rescue centres vet new owners carefully and rarely rehome adult dogs with children under 8. Reputable breeders are also wary of selling puppies to families with young children.

However many dogs aren’t sold/passed on by reputable rescues or breeders.

*And as with everything, the good and responsible dog owners will comply.

The shitty, stupid dog owners won't.*

I don't really get this logic - you could say the same about driving, that because there'll always be scumbags that drive cars with no MOT/licence/insurance, we should do away with driving tests and licences and make it a free for all.

@QueenOfThorns

I’m not a dog person in the slightest and don’t know much about them and their behaviour. I just had a look at the list of fatal dog attacks that a PP linked to, and have a question. Can anyone tell me why the owner having an epileptic fit seems to have been the trigger for an attack in several cases?

Like us, dogs have a sense of what is normal behaviour, and what is not, and dogs can be fixed about the boundaries between normal and not normal. AFAIK, current understanding is that the brain waves and behaviour change so drastically that the dog no longer recognises the owner. From their POV its possibly similar to the 'uncanny valley' reaction we have to artificial faces. Sensitive dogs can tell when their epileptic owner is about to have a fit (even several hours ahead), probably by reading the changes in brain waves and micro changes in their behaviour. With training they can learn to alert their owners to a fit, and not to react aggresively. Also many dogs don't like it when their owners are drunk, or react aggressively to strangers who are drunk.

@DogInATent

It's not going to be a chihuahua, cocker spaniel, Yorkshire terrier or red setter, is it?

I definitely wouldn't trust either a chihuahua or Yorkshire terrier with a 17mo child. If you think that neither if these nippy, highly-strung breeds is capable of inflicting life-changing or fatal injuries on a small child then you're deluding yourself. Likewise dachsunds (considered by many vets to be the breed most likely to bite/nip), Westies, and other ankle-height and handbag-sized small status breeds.

A cocker is more likely to inflict blunt force trauma injuries from bouncing them off the furniture than nip them, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Red Setter. Lovely breed, but big, clumsy, and prone to chasing the horizon.

exactly - if you are talking about biting enough to injure any dog can do damage . i have had rescues and kept them away form young children until i knew their nature and that is only minimising risk not eliminating it . one of my family members had to re-home a young cockerpoo that would attack without any warning. They tried everything , but it even bit a behaviourist and a trainer . So the children came first .

The problem is, people hugely underestimate the work that is involved taking on a puppy, to make sure it is properly trained and socialised. Once it stops being cute, if it hasn't been trained it will be seen as a nuisance, barking, destroying things, toileting in the house - so it gets sold onto someone else, further damaging it and what they have on their hands is a time-bomb.