How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

@Moonface123

There would be absolute uproar if young women were to be conscripted alongside with young men in this country, its ok for young boys to be blown up or shot to bits but not young women, and as a mother of two sons this is exactly why l cannot take seriously any of the so called feminist posts on here, at the end of the day equality means equality., not picking and choosing the best bits and making lame excuses about the rest.

This is such an ignorant post I don't know where to begin ...

@nepotismisrife

Mothers who spent the last 16+ years arguing that their daughters were just as able as boys, instilling in these girls a sense of strength power and equality with the boys, would now try to claim that other mother's children should be sent to die simply because they are boys while their daughters are safe at home because they are not strong enough, not fit enough, not robust enough. FFS.

That's really not what we're saying

@NeverDropYourMooncup

They need a reality check.

Physical strength. Size. Muscle mass. All the things that put a healthy male far more at an advantage to any given female, even if she is taller and heavier.

The bit where if they get punched full strength by a girl their size and weight, it'll probably hurt, but if they did it, she'd be out cold if not needing reconstructive surgery.

To not tell them this does a disservice to both, as at present, they may think 'oh, she's fine, she doesn't need any help, she's as big as he is' when a woman is in danger. Or not comprehend why an intoxicated girl needs more help.

Effectively, you have to tell him that he's at a massive physical advantage to pretty much every woman he ever meets, sets eyes on or hears of online.

And yes, he also needs to know that rape is a weapon of war.

Completely agree with all of this.

@SirSamVimesCityWatch

Yes, I realize that they can. But I also know that men are not subject to mass rape in war, whereas woman are.

Men do not rape men at the rate which they rape women. End of.

I'm gobsmacked this needs explaining

@elbea

You are entirely wrong though, physical strength is still incredibly important. My husband has to carry 40kg in his bag for 4km and then run 2km with 25kg. I can barely even lift the bag. This is the minimum standard. There are obviously some women that can, but many can’t and therefore aren’t going to be conscripted to fight in the front line.

Realistically most women cannot do this. You aren’t helping your children by pretending otherwise.

But that’s just those who choose the infantry as a Trade, during basic training every soldier is taught how to fire a rifle, if there really was a war all soldiers would be expected to be able to fight.

During WW 2 the level of basic training for those called up was a lot lower than it is now.

Also as I explained on a much earlier post on the thread, mass rape of women is used as a destabilising tactic. The impact goes beyond the immediate physical impact on the individual and affects the society as a whole, as a result of subsequent pregnancies.

//// 👏

To those still dubious about this I urge you to read "The War on Women " which explains it graphically well

@Boxowine

Where is the OP? I’d really like to know how fair her children think it is now that Putin is shelling a maternity hospital.

I'm glad you made this point Boxowine. I was trying to point out this morning that it's the civilians who are being targetted.

The women in Ukraine who have remained behind seem to be as likely as the men to take part in guerrilla (asymmetric) warfare if the pictures of citizens making Molotov Cocktails and learning to use Kalashnikovs are anything to go by. What about the astonishingly brave women who have confronted Russian soldiers? What happens in the Ukraine armed forces in terms of men and women's roles is only a fraction of what is happening in the country as a whole.

As Calandor pointed out, women trying to escape and not being allowed safe passage via humanitarian corridors are also at risk of dying.

It's hard because the OP's children are quite young (12 & 15) and need some shielding from knowing about war at its most brutal. The best message is that both men and women in Ukraine are faced with situations that demand the utmost bravery.

@elbea

You are entirely wrong though, physical strength is still incredibly important. My husband has to carry 40kg in his bag for 4km and then run 2km with 25kg. I can barely even lift the bag. This is the minimum standard. There are obviously some women that can, but many can’t and therefore aren’t going to be conscripted to fight in the front line.

Realistically most women cannot do this. You aren’t helping your children by pretending otherwise.

The average man, and thus the average conscript, is going to struggle with those tasks. Unless your husband is a genetically impressive specimen, he likely trained to be able to do that. You probably haven't, so yes you struggle to lift it. You're overamping testosterone a little. There are plenty of physically weak men and more physically strong women than ever.

[quote BigOlDingleSlinger69]@ChocolateMassacre

Again you are dodging the question. I didn’t say rape wasn’t inherently terrible - I said it wasn’t more inherently terrible than torture or leaving someone to die in pieces. AND that the fear of it happening to women as opposed to those other things shouldn’t be the one thing that keeps women from fighting.

After all some men will be raped, if men were also just as likely to be raped should they just flee as well and give up the country? If fighting for the country is that important then their really shouldn’t be anything that can keep women from doing it.[/quote]
I'm not dodging the issue.

Women can't trust men. Whether those men are the enemy or on their own side. Men as a group are physically and sexually violent towards women. That's why women need the protection of single sex spaces - female prisons, single sex wards etc. Men take advantage of women when they are vulnerable.

In wartime, women are uniquely vulnerable. Also the strength of an army depends in large part on being able to trust your comrades. Are women really going to make effective soldiers if they can't trust those around them, let alone their (justified) fears of what the enemy will do to them if they are captured? Not only are women soldiers at a physical disadvantage but also a psychological one in many cases.

As for the specific injuries caused by rape to women and why rape might be worse than other physical injuries, I'm amazed that you appear to need a list but here's a few
Pregnancy and forced childbirth
HIV/AIDS
STDs
Pelvic pain
UTIs
Internal bleeding
Vaginal or anal tearing
Rectal-vaginal fistulas
Incontinence
Infertility
Social stigma and exclusion from the community
Honour killings

Worth bearing in mind that rape is often carried out with objects, especially in gang rape situations.

That's ignoring the psychological trauma.

@MiniDaffodils
Have you tried lifting and firing a machine gun/ rifle etc?

When dh and I were in vegas he wanted to go to this shooting range (beyond me really but something he wanted to do). They gave us this big machine gun type thing, rifle and a much smaller gun to fire. I couldn't even get the machine gun on my shoulders- dh and I were laughing at how pathetic I was. The kick back From the smaller gun nearly took me head off - my dh barely flinched! So yes physical attributes absolutely do matter. To say otherwise is just not fact .

We would do a huge disservice to women if we allowed mixed swimming, running, weight lifting competitions as standard, not to mention mixed sex prisons etc. It is a biological fact men are stronger and have a huge physical advantage over men. I can't even win an arm wrestle with my 12 year old nephew, and I weight train and work out and he does nothing (he's not at all sporty).

Perhaps turn it into a positive. We hear so much about the evils of Men and their self-serving Patriarchy, that your sons might benefit from realising that throughout history brave men have laid down their lives for others. Good men (some mere teenagers) protected their women and children and many paid with their lives.
Women weren't allowed to in the past, but I am truly surprised at the number of arguments that women on this thread are devising to prevent women from doing the same in our more enlightened and equal times.

OP, you claim to be the father of both boys and girls and, sadly, I think you radiate misogyny and your sons are following in your footsteps. So no women have painful periods? Really? I needn’t have bothered with years of treatment that finally culminated in a hysterectomy then? If only I’d thought to ask you instead of a gynaecologist 🤦🏻‍♀️😡

I’m assuming that your sons, or at least the elder of the two has additional needs, in which case you are being irresponsible in my opinion to tell him that your misogynistic fantasy world is real. If I’m wrong and no additional needs are present, then how have you managed to keep him believing in your fairies and rainbows stories all these years? He sounds a most unusual teenager. Does he not go to school or have internet access?

I think pushing an idealistic view of the world onto children does them no favours. Yes women can achieve many of the things men can, but it's disingenuous not to acknowledge the additional hurdles they face. And periods for example for some are painful and tough- no society shouldn't dictate you can't do x because you're on your period, but it's okay for girls to know it's okay to not feel like running a marathon and it's okay to want to stay in bed just as much as its okay to carry on as usual and not let them affect you.

As for conscription, its an absolute fact that men are biologically stronger than women, although some women will be stronger than some men; overwhelmingly assuming no specific training this number will be very low. I was in the RN so the fitness requirements weren't as stringent as the army, but bloody hell some of the uniform and the kit is heavy- not to mention designed for male bodies so uncomfortable and not always easy to move in. I was and still am in good shape, I work hard on my fitness but I was still way way below the men who did similar amounts of training- I'll never have the same lung capacity or muscle mass. I'd say at my peak I was on par with a very average bloke who did a bit of phys but nothing too much. I don't think that's the most important factor by far though in why men have been conscripted and women haven't, although as has been said, Ukraine does have females in their military some posters seem to be suggesting they don't and that it'd be different here because we do.

Are your children curious why only men start these wars? I am.

12 and 15 years? Do they live under a rock? From your initial post I thought they were 6/7

The atrocity today shows why women and children are unfortunately more vulnerable. I cannot comprehend the horror the women and staff must have experienced today. I felt so vulnerable giving birth and in the days afterwards. The thought of women in labour and newborns being shelled is utterly horrifying. They will have been at their most vulnerable - it sickens me to the core.

I doubt very much it was a female soldier that attacked that hospital.

Op has pretty much ignored everyone’s points that women have several physical constraints making it more difficult/less efficient for them to fight. She will only agree to an exemption for women who have just given birth….. because no one really breastfeeds anyway….. oh dear….. and apparently this new invention of ‘weapons’ means that brute force isn’t required
Horrendously, civilians including women and children seem to be in so much danger in this horrible war.anyway.

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

Are your children curious why only men start these wars? I am.

This is something I wonder too!

Men and women should be valued equally and not prevented from being involved in things to which their physical reality is irrelevant. But we shouldn't pretend they are the same in every way, and the differences should be respected not belittled either way.

Are your children curious why only men start these wars? I am.

To be fair, the men who start these wars curiously never seem to put themselves or their loved ones in any danger in fighting for the causes which mean so much to them.

'Big-Potatoes' Putin has been strictly isolating himself to shield against the potential risk of contracting Covid, whilst happily sending the young people of his country to do his dirty work killing babies and young children. I do wonder quite how keen men like him would be to start wars if it was on the firm understanding that they would be the first ones sent on to the front line.

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

Are your children curious why only men start these wars? I am.

It’s not only men who start wars. Someone hasn’t studied women’s history at all have they?

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

Are your children curious why only men start these wars? I am.

Putin is doing exactly what his predecessor Catherine the Great did 250yrs ago....with exception that she also had aspirations to conquer all of Turkey as her annexation of Ukraine and the Crimea did not fully satisfy her imperial ambitions. www.smithsonianmag.com/history/when-catherine-great-invaded-crimea-and-put-rest-world-edge-180949969/

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

Are your children curious why only men start these wars? I am.

Very few men have started wars, millions of men have died fighting in them. Most of those men fought either because they had no choice (thanks Patriarchy) or because they wanted to protect the women and children they loved.

But I'm not so sure that women are as peace loving as you think:

The legendary Boudica

Thatcher and her tank

Elizabeth I's England was at war with Spain for the last 18 years of her reign. Her successor James I (James VI of Scotland) immediately sued for peace.

Famously after the last muslim Prince was driven out of Spain, weeping for the lands he had lost, his mother looked at him dismissively and said: "Why do you cry now like a woman over the loss of our lands that you were unable to defend like a man?"

Oh and I came across this article, I don't know if it is respected or not, but you might enjoy reading it - qz.com/967895/throughout-history-women-rulers-were-more-likely-to-wage-war-than-men

@whynotwhy

That’s a short list given the number of wars throughout human history 🙄