How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

@BigOlDingleSlinger69

Reading some of the comments on the thread, one is reminded of some of the suffragettes, who having won the right to vote, minus the draft, turned around and handed out white feathers to cowardly men who wouldn’t fight (or sometimes just totally random men) with glee.

Some women won the right to vote in 1918, after the first world war, along with the 42 % of men who had been denied the vote for not being property owners. The rest of women won the right to vote on par with men in 1928.

There were strong pro and anti war movements at the outbreak of the First World War and whilst there may have been some overlap of the women and men involved, it is not the same thing.

There were two separate women's movements fighting for the right for women to vote using different approaches. During the war most of them put this aside in order to help the war effort in some way.

Women are physically weaker, so certain roles wouldn't be suitable.

Women have babies.

Women are usually the ones looking after children and elderly people.

It is sexist to divide the genders in this way, but the solution is to fight patriarchal society more widely so men are equal carers in times of peace and women are more respected.

Men cannot be treated with privilege 99% of the time and then complain about the 1% where things are worse for them (particularly even this is directly linked to their perception as the more capable and important gender).

This is how 'only men are being conscripted in Ukraine'. End!

@Jobseeker19

What makes people more likely to rape during war time? It makes me think that they want to do it any time and wait on standby for wars to happen

Unfortunately, that is the conclusion I have come to as well. Not 'people' though. Men.

@SirSamVimesCityWatch

You realise men can also be raped in war as well? Plus killed, maimed, tortured or left to die slowly and painfully? Are those things somehow less evil or bad for those men there happening to than women being raped?

Why in a litany of horrors like that is the rape of women the one outcome that should be avoided?
Because it plays on accepted public sentiment to see it as more horrifying for women to be raped and alive than men killed horribly or tortured as we’ve come to expect that out of war?

@SirSamVimesCityWatch

The mass rape of women and girls in war is evil. There's a really bloody obvious reason to send the 16-18 year old girls away. As has been pointed out multiple times on this thread, even troops on their own side will rape them, let alone the enemy.

This. Girls separated from their families in a conflict zone are incredibly vulnerable. Even if they had guns to protect themselves and by incredible luck weren't overpowered, it's not only the enemy they'd end up shooting but plenty on their own side too. They couldn't trust anyone, not even their own side, to watch their back. A large proportion would be gang raped and come back pregnant. Or trafficked.

@BigOlDingleSlinger69

Reading some of the comments on the thread, one is reminded of some of the suffragettes, who having won the right to vote, minus the draft, turned around and handed out white feathers to cowardly men who wouldn’t fight (or sometimes just totally random men) with glee.

Some - the wealthy, older ones - women voted for the first time on 14 December 1918. WWI had ended the precious month.

So, apart from the vague possibility that some woman had managed to invent time travel and not tell anybody about it so she and her friends could go out and do the white feather shite in the earlier part of the war, there is absolutely nothing about your claim that is in the slightest bit true.

Some very interesting arguments on both sides.
My boys are 12 and 15.

Like many children the boys have been upset by the war and the unfairness of the men being conscripted and women not is something I still really don’t have an answer for. Their ages mean, if it came to it (and I pray that it won’t), they aren’t too far away from the age of being called up. It seems a very relevant discussion for them. They can see the unfairness of making men but not women kill other humans - something they cannot comprehend doing. They also feel mens lives are not valued in the same way.

I can’t get on board with the whole “girls are such delicate flowers they cannot fight on the front line like the men” as that’s blatantly not true. Physical strength is not the issue for today’s soldiers as they use weapons rather than brute force.
I have brought my children up to think that girls can do any job a man can and also that child rearing is equally a man’s job as much as a woman’s.

If a woman has just given birth or is breast feeding (but not many women do breast feed in this country) then i imagine there would be a medical exemption, but after the first few months, I think it is just as valid for the father to be the main carer and stay at home as it is for the mother.

I have decided just to focus on the fact that in the past our country also used to view women as not suitable to be in the armed forces but now they are more enlightened and do serve on the front line. Ukraine will perhaps change its position over time.

I will also focus on the fact that in this country both men and women would be conscripted if needed and that there will be many men and women (me included) who would be terrified and horrified at the thought.

I don’t know if it’s possible to refuse to kill others and serve in another way but I am going to sugar coat things and tell them it is.

Anyway, as I say, some very good points on both sides - thanks all.

Yes, I realize that they can. But I also know that men are not subject to mass rape in war, whereas woman are.

Men do not rape men at the rate which they rape women. End of.

What country are you in? You keep making statements that aren't entirely relevant to the UK or America or similar then saying "in this country" so I'm intrigued.

@Stompythedinosaur

Why is it that the solution is to push men into roles which relieves the burden on women but not the opposite? That seems like awfully convenient reasoning.

You say men can not complain about not being privileged 1% of the time if they are the other 99%, and that might ring true if not for the fact that the people saying it were fighting against them being privileged that (supposed) 99%.

Men could easily counter this and say that women can’t complain about them being privileged 99% of the time when they are expected to suffer the worst percentage of inequality and women will not join them in it willingly.

You can’t have it both ways.

Physical strength is not the issue for today’s soldiers as they use weapons rather than brute force.

It is an issue.

something odd about this question.

@MiniDaffodils

How much time do they spend gaming? If so how many women do they see in their war games?

I'm surprised that a 15 year old is surprised. Seems a world away from my 15 year old. Does your husband indulge in this poor menism? Where does it come from?

Of course physical strength is an issue, soldiers still need to be able to do hand to hand combat, you must realise that?

We have no idea if women would be conscripted for front line, it's entirely hypothetical.

@LizBennet

Physical strength is not the issue for today’s soldiers as they use weapons rather than brute force.

It is an issue.

100% this.

@NeverDropYourMooncup

It’s true that their was overlap in the groups of suffragettes and the white feather stuff. But that’s not really important, I’m not an expert on the time - it was just a comment on the hypocrisy of some attitudes.

Just tell them it's unfair but that's how Ukraine is doing it. Mass conscription is unlikely to ever happen in the UK, and you're not sure if it would be both men and women would be conscripted.

However please tell them to be kind to the many women that suffer from period pain it might be easy for you, but it's not easy for many women who are told to shut up and the pain is inconsequential. The NHS and WHO both recommend breastfeeding until 2 and until at least 6 months in most cases anyway. Also, women will need time to recover from birth. Young babies need their mum, and in war, it is far easier to just say 'no men' at the border than to ask them to make the decisions then about who is best-suited ot fight and who would keep the kids.

@SirSamVimesCityWatch

Perhaps - but why is the horror of women being raped something to be avoided over the horror of men being killed, maimed, tortured or left to die in pieces?

Honestly @MiniDaffodils I’d like you to take on board that your comment about BF is unfair to the many many women who are debilitated by it.

@LizBennet

Physical strength is not the issue for today’s soldiers as they use weapons rather than brute force.

It is an issue.

I was just about to pick up on that.

My son is in the armed forces, and the job he does absolutely relies on physical strength. Yes some women can be as strong however without breaching any security, I can tell you that few women have passed the physical requirements in this very particular field.
The sheer physical strength and endurance needed there is probably hard to imagine.
This would be very front line in a war situation. It's not just people shooting guns.

I can’t get on board with the whole “girls are such delicate flowers they cannot fight on the front line like the men” as that’s blatantly not true.

Is this your response to women and girls being raped and killed by Russian soldiers?

I will also focus on the fact that in this country both men and women would be conscripted if needed and that there will be many men and women (me included) who would be terrified and horrified at the thought.

More horrified than Russia invading and taking over England to do as they please including rape women and kill children?

I don’t know if it’s possible to refuse to kill others and serve in another way but I am going to sugar coat things and tell them it is.

They are 12 and 15 , poor boys will be in for a rough awakening in a couple of years when they start living in the real world where their mom can't wrap them in soft cotton wool any longer.

[quote BigOlDingleSlinger69]@SirSamVimesCityWatch

Perhaps - but why is the horror of women being raped something to be avoided over the horror of men being killed, maimed, tortured or left to die in pieces?[/quote]
Men have a roughly equal chance to defend themselves against other men, I guess, whereas women do not.

Also as I explained on a much earlier post on the thread, mass rape of women is used as a destabilising tactic. The impact goes beyond the immediate physical impact on the individual and affects the society as a whole, as a result of subsequent pregnancies.

I will also focus on the fact that in this country both men and women would be conscripted if needed and that there will be many men and women (me included) who would be terrified and horrified at the thought.

So you'll carry on presenting complete uncertainties as facts to your children?

You've really not bothered to consider any of the points so many posters have raised, have you? Rape as a weapon of war being a massive one.

I have decided just to focus on the fact that in the past our country also used to view women as not suitable to be in the armed forces but now they are more enlightened and do serve on the front line. Ukraine will perhaps change its position over time

Women can already join the military in Ukraine, they have a higher percentage than we do, so this is ignorant and condescending.

They also feel mens lives are not valued in the same way.

I cannot role my eyes hard enough at this one. I honestly can't. Instead of teaching them that life is rainbows and sunshine and everyone is treated equally and can achieve the same, please be realistic otherwise yet more entitled men blinkered to the reality of life for women in society enter adulthood.