To think the situation in Ukraine has highlighted how racist many still are.

[username99903]

The outpouring of shock and horror at the situation is right of course. I am not trying to take away from that. I have seen some amazing examples of people trying to help and charitable giving. I of course have donated. However I can't help but think why we can not feel this empathy toward the people of Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria etc.

I have heard the most appalling statements especially from US channels talking about how Ukraine is a civilised country that you wouldn't expect this to happen to. It's like people think those from the Yemen etc are some how use to war/don't feel pain the way white Europeans do. We literally dehumanise and devalue people lives.

My work place is holding a charity event which again is great. But we have never thought to do it before for any other war where there was mass migration.

It's not a new realisation I just think it's massively highlighted it.

@LawnFever The majority of refugees worldwide go to neighbouring countries. Don’t know why you think this is unique to Europe? This puts strain on these countries, so it’s unsurprising that some refugees will seek help further afield, particularly those countries where they have connections.

I agree with you on the whole although I'm unsure if it's overt racism or cultural ignorance.

I also think as it's on our doorstep and therefore could directly affect us people care.

I know I was heartbroken about the terrible atrocities in Syria - such barbaric tactics on both sides, it's all the civilians I feel sorry for.

Britain declared war in WW2 when Germany invaded Poland. Poland shares a border with Ukraine. Norway & Finland both European countries share a border with Russia.

I grew up during the Cold War so therefore this conflict worries me far more than a conflict in Syria or Afghanistan.

But for your info I donated to those appeals as much as I have now.

It’s nothing to do with rave it’s history & proximity.

I see Charlie D’Agata has apologised for the civilised comment. Civilised in this context for me would be defined by things like national and freely elected government with a structure / laws that reflect this, policing by consent, relatively harmonious population and social protection of the vulnerable.

I don’t think the comment was racist, rather problematic because of the historical definitions of civilised society vs that of ‘savages’ and possible assumptions that he was claiming places like Afghanistan and Iraq are uncivilised. I don’t think that was the point being made. We simply cannot wind the clock back to the mid 20th century when these countries were burgeoning ‘modern’ societies. Post-industrial perhaps plus explanation would have been less emotionally charged.

As for your op, others have pointed out, Ukraine is on our doorstep, Russia is eyeing up being the dominant superpower, which poses a very tangible and Nuclear threat.

As a post-industrialised nation, many of the residents in Ukraine live in urban areas, have a lot of tech and speak English. In contrast, most in Yemen, Afghanistan or Syria neither speak English nor have the ability to FaceTime / skype live on tv and due to proximity and infrastructure it’s a lot easier to get correspondents into Ukraine than lesser developed countries. Then there’s the refugee make up. Predominantly women and children rather than young men.

I don’t think it’s racism, however the optics may seem, rather self-preservation.

Race not ‘rave’

@Squidinkk

The reality is that many refugees from places like iraq, afghanistan and syria WOULD have preferred to live in the west anyway

That's quite the statement. You think these people wanted to be displaced? Any evidence for that viewpoint?

I agree in that those displaced people wanted to continue their journey further into the West rather than settle in the first safe country they arrived in, that in itself does show many are/were keen to live in the West.

@user1471447924

I’ll just leave this here.

very good point

@skodadoda

This is a bit off topic but I see the contrast with people’s attitudes during and after the Brexit referendum. In a lot of areas there was open hostility directed at Eastern Europeans and BAME people. Anyone apparently ‘foreign’ ran the gauntlet of ‘go back to your own country’. No doubt some of these ‘foreigners’ were Ukrainian.

I was going to comment this too. Its interesting to see why this has changed. A Lott of people that I know's impression (including mine some time back unfortunately) was that Ukraine,like the rest of eastern Europe is a shithole full of crumbling post Soviet concrete and heroin addicts. Eastern Europeans are only here to beg or gold dig etc. I was scared to visit Eastern Europe for years because I thought this! Which is ridiculous and yes I know now it was very wrong. I'm surprised to hear that we are not racist against them if anything - among some toxic family (that I am non longer in touch with) the sentiment has always been against this group of people than any others.

@NandorTheRelentlessCleaner

I think starting a thread accusing anyone who cares about the situation of Ukraine as racist is just unbelievably crass and ugly

People cared (and care) deeply about Syria, Merkel let in 1 million refugees, people care about Afghanistan and the people left behind there

Why attribute dark motives (white supremacy) to people who care about others?

Also, there is a big difference in that Putin has bombed (close to ) a nuclear reactor and has threatened with a nuclear war, so it's a different situation as we could all be affected (and due) next week. This obviously heightens People's anxiety across Europe

Agree with your first point.

It is ugly and dangerous to characterise Ukrainians and other eastern and central European countries as racist. Yes, some individuals will have racist attitudes, just as people do everywhere. We have to loudly challenge these attitudes.

Dismissing an entire nation as racist, as though it is some inherent characteristic, is itself pretty racist. You are saying these people - this entire nation - is less deserving of help and empathy because they are all, without exception, inherently bad people. The mind boggles.

[quote SmallThingsEverywhere]@LawnFever The majority of refugees worldwide go to neighbouring countries. Don’t know why you think this is unique to Europe? This puts strain on these countries, so it’s unsurprising that some refugees will seek help further afield, particularly those countries where they have connections.[/quote]
I don’t think it’s unique to Europe at all, it’s common sense.

My point is that when other refugees have been displaced to neighbouring countries, eg Syria to Turkey many have continued to want to travel rather than remain in the place where they’re safe.

Ukraine refugees are already in Europe because that’s where they started, they’re not trying to cross continents.

People cared (and care) deeply about Syria, Merkel let in 1 million refugees, people care about Afghanistan and the people left behind there

Ok so Germany did their bit. How many people did the uk take?

I reject the idea that you can't talk about this because it's in some way disrespectful or that there's a better time to talk about how white asylum seekers are treated differently to those who are not white. Those refugees languishing in refugee camps across Europe still need help as well.

Ah, can't edit my comment.

But just wanted to add, that this panic about racism in central and eastern Europe is often just a way to justify anti eastern European sentiment.

@Squidinkk

The reality is that many refugees from places like iraq, afghanistan and syria WOULD have preferred to live in the west anyway

That's quite the statement. You think these people wanted to be displaced? Any evidence for that viewpoint?

I live in the middle-east, most people who are not GCC citizens would prefer to move west not necessarily europe(these are my friends btw, as I said I’m not white, I have friends from different nationalities and socio-economic groups, I don’t live in an “expat” area, some have already moved) I didn’t say they want to be displaced or have bombs dropped on them I’m saying if given the choice many would want to so if their countries of origin settle they may not want to return and rebuild so it is permanent migration (that is not a value judgement)

You have to understand many people come from places which are extremely corrupt, life is hard, going to a country where you believe the institutions are not corrupt where you believe your kids can be educated where your old age won’t be in poverty where health care needs will be met is of course preferable and if you flee there without much choice would you want to go back to the corruption, patchy electricity and water supplies, bribes? I wasn’t saying it in a derogatory way and I wasn’t making a value judgement about it.

There's a big helping of racism in the public response, the refugee limits and the coverage. That's pretty clear.

But... the immediate public 'switch-on' is only natural... this is a major, devastating, conventional war in Europe. That line of tanks around Kiev reminds every last one of us of WW2 and Poland.

The run up to the war in Iraq generated large and repeated protests. A sense of purpose (to stop the UK government joining in).

This is just out of control and scary, for us directly in the UK. So much of the outpouring of cash and goods is just a understandable response to fear.

I agree in that those displaced people wanted to continue their journey further into the West rather than settle in the first safe country they arrived in, that in itself does show many are/were keen to live in the West

Imagine not wanting to live in a tent in a refugee camp. Perhaps these people should just stay put and raise their children in squalor so that they don't have to impose on the west.

I think the people of syria for example were probably quite happy to stay living there as they had done for hundreds of thousands of years. Before we started bombing it. You make it sound like they jumped for joy at the chance to leave their homes to live in a foreign country where they don't speak the language and have no roots at all.

petapixel.com/2016/08/02/26-photos-show-war-changed-syria/

how did we choose how many Syrians to take
we are powerless personally

how about the tsunami on boxing day 2004
that received a huge amount of support, my dc's school raised a large amount
it is about being aware.
currently we are all very aware of the atrocity in ukraine

*My point is that when other refugees have been displaced to neighbouring countries, eg Syria to Turkey many have continued to want to travel rather than remain in the place where they’re safe.

*They may be 'safe' but often the first safe place is a LMIC- large numbers of refugees put a strain on LMICs already limited resources and. Developing countries host 85% of the world's displaced people- with the least developed countries hosting 27%. That is not right- all countries should share the hosting of refugees.

There are also many reasons why people would want to travel to a specific country such as the UK or Germany for example; family already living in those countries and cultural ties, knowledge of the language, hoping for the chance to settle somewhere where they can really rebuild their lives are just a few.

Fwiw I really hate it when posters want to throw around lazy comments about the UK being a horrible racist country. There are a minority of vile racists- lumping everyone in with these knuckle-draggers is unfair and just breeds defensiveness, creating more division.

I remember the threads on here about Syria, I remember the threads on here last summer when the US and UK withdrew from Afghanistan. There was a lot of discussion on Mumsnet about wanting to host Afghan refugees. People DO care- I believe the vast majority of people care about the ordinary people involved in the same way, wherever they are from.

The difference now is people are looking back at history, two horrific world wars in Europe, and they are personally scared for where this fresh nightmare leads to- they are scared for themselves, and their own children, as well as the sadness and despair for the people of Ukraine. Most people are no less sad about the suffering in other parts of the world- this just feels more shocking.

It is ugly and dangerous to characterise Ukrainians and other eastern and central European countries as racist. Yes, some individuals will have racist attitudes, just as people do everywhere. We have to loudly challenge these attitudes.

Dismissing an entire nation as racist, as though it is some inherent characteristic, is itself pretty racist.

Good point.

Imagine not wanting to live in a tent in a refugee camp. Perhaps these people should just stay put and raise their children in squalor so that they don't have to impose on the west.

I’m not suggesting they live forever in a camp, but there should’ve been other options in closer countries to them so they never needed to make such dangerous journeys.

And again, this shows that those people did want to purposefully travel further West, which is the statement a PP disagreed with.

how did we choose how many Syrians to take
we are powerless personally

This as well actually- I am in complete agreement that the UK government is a complete disgrace and should be utterly, utterly ashamed of their response. We know Boris, Priti Patel are completely shameless, unfortunately.

It does not align with the feelings and desire of a large number of people in the UK to do much more to help refugees- from all parts of the world.

Whilst I am sure there is racism in some quarters, there are other things at play here.

Megalomaniacs starting land wars in Europe triggers particular feelings in Europeans. The Allies prevailed before by being Allies -pulling together.

I've personally always thought it was very poor that rich neighbours in conflict zones have often done very little to welcome refugees and/or offer financial support to those fleeing nearby countries. I would be hypocritical if I didn't think Europe should be doing everything possible to support refugees from a neighbour.

In any event, as others have pointed out Europeans did a lot to support refugees from conflicts elsewhere.

Religion has often been the base for wars in the past and influences how 'like us' we see other peoples. I think Afghanis are mostly muslim. In the UK terrorists are usually muslim. With different lives and beliefs.

Perhaps religion comes into this Russian invasion. But religion is always played down by reporters and historians imv.

Bosnian war was a war between different religious groups.

We know Boris, Priti Patel are completely shameless, unfortunately.

Well one of the platforms they got in on was stopping the third of a million immigrants a year who have entered the UK over the last 15 years - though some have gone back now.

So you think they should ignore the British public and what they voted for and just let millions more of immigrants in.

*I’m not suggesting they live forever in a camp, but there should’ve been other options in closer countries to them so they never needed to make such dangerous journeys.

And again, this shows that those people did want to purposefully travel further West, which is the statement a PP disagreed with.*

@LawnFever this is a separate topic to the current situation in Ukraine but how do you suggest creating 'better options' in host countries, the large majority of whom are LMICs, including some of the least developed countries in the world, who don't even have the resources and infrastructure to support their own citizens?

Agree people shouldn't have been making dangerous journeys- that should have been the responsibility of countries like the UK to ensure people could travel safely to other host nations. The UK government did not do enough. Along with many other developed countries. Hosting refugees should not fall solely on the shoulders of LMICs- it's the responsibility of everyone, especially the wealthiest countries.

@Polyanthus2 I think it highlights that the government need to improve our education system if people don't understand the difference between immigration and forced displacement, for one thing.