The Invasion is ongoing...Part 8

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Following on...

s there more info on this? As in, does such abuse of women happen in all wars? Like when Germans invaded countries? Vietnam? Or is there some sort of known thing that Russians do this more in war? I feel like I don’t understand enough. All suggestions of stuff to read most welcome

There are a lot of harrowing stories about how women are treated in war when soldiers are attacking and occupying a country - from wars over the centuries.

Russia really cranked up its strategic misinformation campaign in the 1950’s. Genius strategy as it costs so little but reaps huge dividends. Honed IRT as communication technology has evolved over the decades. Yes, of course other countries including the US, China etc. carry out their own misinformation campaigns. But really Russia has first mover advantage here. Such that it definitely shows what a powerful a tool it actually is and how those in charge will seek to master the craft to further their agenda.

RedToothBrush Nadine she-often-speaks-without-thinking Dorries as our hope for supporting independent journalism and critical thinking leaves me unsure whether to laugh or cry.

Someone mentioned Japan a few pages back. My DH was reminding me the other day of a strange incident pre WW1 when the Russians were fighting the Japanese. They sent the Baltic fleet to Japan. Anyway it seems like their geography was as bad as the present day Russians who claimed not to know they were in Ukraine, as they shot at Hull, thinking it was a Japanese city.

Nadine she-often-speaks-without-thinking Dorries as our hope for supporting independent journalism and critical thinking leaves me unsure whether to laugh or cry

I wonder if her views on the BBC have changed?

does such abuse of women happen in all wars

not sure it happened on the Western front in WW2 other than few bad eggs (it is worth noting than when a young woman was raped in the Channel Islands by an occupying German soldier he was shot) but it has certainly happened in the war between Sudan and South Sudan, and obviously ISIS have used it as a weapon of war. Quite possibly in Yugoslavia as well but I don't know enough about it.

@NCdBcOuting

Interesting discussion on WW2 knowledge and school vs home. I too thought it was enough to talk about it at home and in culture, but actually now see both need to happen side by side. This is such a helpful thread. Those teens not knowing really is shocking.

@TheSillyMastiff upthread in the bit on women staying behind to fight, you said

“because of the historic issues with the Russian army and attacking and raping women to death.”

Is there more info on this? As in, does such abuse of women happen in all wars? Like when Germans invaded countries? Vietnam? Or is there some sort of known thing that Russians do this more in war? I feel like I don’t understand enough. All suggestions of stuff to read most welcome.

Presumably that "historic" reference, if re WWII, is to the behaviour of Russian soldiers in WWII on entering Germany?

Febrier

I am surprised at the "women and children" aspect in this day and age. Why are abled-bodied women permitted to leave but men compelled by law to stay? If you don't have children, could you leave your men behind?

For children's safety obviously, but also because women almost always get raped in war. Read about the rape of Berlin. 100,000 females, including young children and very elderly woman raped and many raped to death. So upsetting that it is barely mentioned these days. Not much has changed.

My grandmother was one of these women. She was also starved during the Russian occupation and suffered life long medical problems as a consequence.
I fully believe that Russian troops involved in this invasion would not hold back from doing the same

I also feel, off the back of the financial times article posted in this thread that protests outside of the Russian embassy would be a proactive thing that we could all get involved in.

Is there more info on this? As in, does such abuse of women happen in all wars? Like when Germans invaded countries? Vietnam? Or is there some sort of known thing that Russians do this more in war? I feel like I don’t understand enough. All suggestions of stuff to read most welcome.

It is widely acknowledged in all conflicts I think, I'd be interested to know of any exceptions. Rape is often used as a tool of war, men forced at gun-point to rape their own relatives. Men raped to dehumanise them, women deliberately impregnated with the enemies babies etc.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11

The Russians are going to exhaust their economy with this war in Ukraine. They could well stop there.

www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11
How the Russians used rape .

@Febrier

I know that women (and children) are routinely raped in conflict, but men are routinely tortured, abused and killed also. They haven't been given the choice that these brave women have. I'm not going to labour this point, because to be honest I don't want to dwell on it in my own mind. But I just keep thinking about the individual choices that people are having to make and live through.

No, the men have not been given a choice.

The women who have chosen to stay will probably not participate in on the ground combat. As I said in a previous thread, women are slower and weaker than men. In on the ground combat the majority (if not all) women are likely to be a liability, not an asset. This is not pleasant to hear, but it is true.

There is a reason women without children were not conscripted in the same way men were. The women would die at a much higher rate than the men. More deaths = low morale among the remaining troops.

@NCdBcOuting

Interesting discussion on WW2 knowledge and school vs home. I too thought it was enough to talk about it at home and in culture, but actually now see both need to happen side by side. This is such a helpful thread. Those teens not knowing really is shocking.

@TheSillyMastiff upthread in the bit on women staying behind to fight, you said

“because of the historic issues with the Russian army and attacking and raping women to death.”

Is there more info on this? As in, does such abuse of women happen in all wars? Like when Germans invaded countries? Vietnam? Or is there some sort of known thing that Russians do this more in war? I feel like I don’t understand enough. All suggestions of stuff to read most welcome.

It happens in all wars. It is a weapon of war.

The treatment of women during the Fall of Berlin is one of the best documented though, and of course plays to the sense of 'History isn't forgotten by those who endure it'.

Example of Vietnam:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%E1%BB%B9_Lai_massacre

The Mỹ Lai massacre was the mass murder of unarmed South Vietnamese civilians by United States troops in Sơn Tịnh District, South Vietnam, on 16 March 1968 during the Vietnam War. Between 347 and 504 unarmed people were killed by U.S. Army soldiers from Company C, 1st Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment and Company B, 4th Battalion, 3rd Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade, 23rd (Americal) Infantry Division. Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated, as were children as young as 12. Twenty-six soldiers were charged with criminal offenses, but only Lieutenant William Calley Jr., a platoon leader in C Company, was convicted. Found guilty of murdering 22 villagers, he was originally given a life sentence, but served three-and-a-half years under house arrest after President Richard Nixon commuted his sentence.

In the same respect ,I find it shocking how few children are taught about the Soviet Union!

Millions and millions of people not only killed but then forced to live in what was essentially one giant prison camp with every detail of their lives controlled.
Especially thought.

Ben Wallace on a no-fly zone

No-fly zone might hinder Ukraine, not help, says UK defence secretary

Jonathan Beale
BBC defence correspondent
The UK defence secretary says a no-fly zone over Ukraine would not just increase the danger to Nato allies - who might come into direct confrontation with Russian planes - but could also hamper Ukraine's ability to defend itself.

On a visit to Estonia and Denmark this week, Ben Wallace told the BBC that Russia had so far not been successful in destroying Ukraine's air defences and air force.

He said Ukrainian aircraft and drones were "one of the few tools" the Ukrainians had to hit Russian forces from distance - and Wallace said: "If you have a no-fly zone, it works for both sides."

He said it could "possibly hand an advantage to the Russians", who could still target cities with their long-range artillery and missiles from land.

"I think people should ask themselves the question before they suggest these things, what would it mean on the ground and what does it mean for Nato, when there are other ways to help Ukrainians defend themselves from the air," he says.

Western nations have been supplying Ukraine with hundreds of "Stinger" anti-aircraft missiles in recent weeks.

Ukraine's President Zelensky has publicly called for a no-fly zone. But Wallace said he'd been in daily contact with Ukraine's defence minister who, he said, had not asked for one.

Yeahthat I always find it amusing when someone does one of these patronising treatise on critical thinking/media manipulation/echo chambers - while being unable to hide that they're very heavily on one side of an issue and can't comprehend that anyone else can legitimately think differently.

Great that you’re finding something to feel amused about these days. We could all use a laugh.

If you’re implying that I can’t hide the fact that I’m very heavily on the side of thinking that Putin’s war on Ukraine as nothing short of horrific. Well, yes, you’d be right about that. What is the legitimate other side??

Anyway it seems like their geography was as bad as the present day Russians who claimed not to know they were in Ukraine, as they shot at Hull, thinking it was a Japanese city.

If you are referring to the Russian Outrage, they did not sail up the Humber and shoot at Hull, they opened fire on a trawler fleet out on Dogger Bank.

@TheSillyMastiff you've reminded me of something from, believe it or not, 30 years ago when Schindler's List was released. At university there was a question-and-answer session with some members of the Royal Shakespeare Company and one of the 40-something actresses was shocked that her niece had never heard of the Holocaust. I remember the whole room was shocked too!

The historical context is, as I have posted above, that when the Russians took Berlin at the end of the second world war, they raped women in huge numbers, including my grandmother. They blockaded Berlin and left people starving.
My grandmother was removed from the situation thanks to the Vittles Operation, she was brought to England and she never returned to live in Germany.

[quote herecomesthsun]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

www.theguardian.com/books/2002/may/01/news.features11[/quote]
Sadly rape is often a weapon of war. See this link too (no Russians involved).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

I'm not sure I completely buy the Russian soldiers not knowing where they are/thinking they were still on exercise. If I were engaged in hostilities against a very motivated and passionate people, then captured by these (understandably) very hostile people brandishing weapons I think I'd be tempted to claim that I didn't know where I was/why I was really there. It'd take a pretty brave/stupid person in that situation to say "yes, hello, I'm here with the aim of killing you, taking away your sovereignty and removing your freedom." Obviously I'm massively over-simplifying and I don't doubt that communication is very lacking and some of the younger conscripts, especially, aren't fully abreast of the situation, but I'm also not sure I completely buy it. It does feed brilliantly well into the Ukrainian propaganda, though, which can only be a good thing.

I was shocked yesterday listening to a young Russian woman (living in the UK) on local radio. She was worried about her family back in Russia and was concerned that they would become cold and hungry. She thought that the west was being brutish for implementing sanctions against her country. Firmly believed that Ukraine is part of Russia and that Russia's actions are just.

They walk among us.

@Febrier

Is there more info on this? As in, does such abuse of women happen in all wars? Like when Germans invaded countries? Vietnam? Or is there some sort of known thing that Russians do this more in war? I feel like I don’t understand enough. All suggestions of stuff to read most welcome.

It is widely acknowledged in all conflicts I think, I'd be interested to know of any exceptions. Rape is often used as a tool of war, men forced at gun-point to rape their own relatives. Men raped to dehumanise them, women deliberately impregnated with the enemies babies etc.

Exactly. It's a tool of war. Bosnian rape camps. Rwanda. It has been a longstanding feature of conflict in history.

www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/10/17/visegrads-rape-camps-denial-and-erasure

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_Rwandan_genocide

Ref critical thinking, here’s a link to that book I mentioned earlier: www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/44584488-the-irrational-ape

@ArabellaStrange

Febrier

I am surprised at the "women and children" aspect in this day and age. Why are abled-bodied women permitted to leave but men compelled by law to stay? If you don't have children, could you leave your men behind?

For children's safety obviously, but also because women almost always get raped in war. Read about the rape of Berlin. 100,000 females, including young children and very elderly woman raped and many raped to death. So upsetting that it is barely mentioned these days. Not much has changed.

My grandmother was one of these women. She was also starved during the Russian occupation and suffered life long medical problems as a consequence.
I fully believe that Russian troops involved in this invasion would not hold back from doing the same

I also feel, off the back of the financial times article posted in this thread that protests outside of the Russian embassy would be a proactive thing that we could all get involved in.

I think one of the reasons armies don't like men and women serving together is because of the psychological aspect of if they are captured together.

Apparently men find it harder to deal with hearing / seeing women being tortured, because of the idea of being taught to protect them being hardwired.

If you want to get vital information out of someone, its a common technique to use because it breaks people quicker - especially if its a couple in a relationship.

There is something of an awareness of this and I think it has been studied to a degree.

Its preferable if men and women do serve that they serve separately rather than in combined units for this reason (and because the women are also potentially at risk from their own side in a lawless situation too).

Thats why there are some notable female only units (both relatively contemporary and historical). Female units tend to be a line of last resort.

Remember a lot of equipment is bulky and heavy. Bullet proof vests are designed to the spec of mens bodies (and don't necessarily protect women as well).

In terms of front line work there is plenty of cruical jobs that don't require a gun. People tend to forget the logistics stuff like getting food to troops which is equally essential but possibly better suited to smaller people who make a smaller target...