The invasion is a Week Old...Part 7

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Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

Interestingly, the podcast I mentioned earlier in the thread mentioned that 20-odd years ago Putin was making quiet noises about joining NATO/entering a partnership.

I believe that Gordon Brown has been saying the same.

As far as I can tell Russia/USSR has never directly threatened the USA. In part this is because the USA is a relatively young country in global terms, and has only really come to major prominence in the last century and a half. The Americans however, have directly interfered with the USSR, unsuccessfully.

And please don't start telling me about the Cuban missile crisis - I am old enough to remember it. What they didn't make clear to us at the time was that the USA already had missiles pointing towards the USSR stationed in Turkey.

None of this excuses Putin but perhaps there needs to be a realisation that a significant part of the world have a different mindset and are not in thrall to the American way of life.

I studied European history for A level, now more than half a century ago, and it was one long series of countries fighting each other. So I deliberately left out the UK from my statements above because England/the British Empire did it's fair share of fighting. (Totally off topic, but I think Britain has never been to war directly with Portugal either, since the 14th Century)

Has anyone noticed a huge amount of US citizens calling for world war three on various social media platforms?!

I think CowboyJo is getting a hard time here. There are lots of people who (understandably) think ww3 is coming regardless of what we do (or don’t do) so would prefer to get NATO involved now rather than waiting. It doesn’t mean they want ww3, just that they believe it to be inevitable.

I disagree because I think (or maybe it is hope) that Russian people / oligarchs will find a way to get rid of Putin before he invades a NATO country.

@BeyondPurpleTulips

Well if nuclear apocalyptic ww3 starts, at least you won't have to live with yourself 🤷🏼‍♀️

CowboyJo, Starting WW3 wouldn't help Ukraine in the slightest. Avoiding it safeguards us and the whole of Europe. In what way would it help the people fighting in Ukraine to endanger the lives of their loved ones who have found safe refuge in other European countries???

@FacebookPhotos

I think CowboyJo is getting a hard time here. There are lots of people who (understandably) think ww3 is coming regardless of what we do (or don’t do) so would prefer to get NATO involved now rather than waiting. It doesn’t mean they want ww3, just that they believe it to be inevitable.

I disagree because I think (or maybe it is hope) that Russian people / oligarchs will find a way to get rid of Putin before he invades a NATO country.

This "poster" has said on another thread that a 9 year old boy deserves to be bullied as he's Russian and is scaring children. Do not engage.

But we can't stand here and do nothing. We stood up for Poland and started off the Second World War when Hitler was torturing its people, even when we weren't directly affected by Hitler's torture

I can't understand people who make statements like this. WW2 began over 80 years ago. The world is not the same. People are not the same. Weapons are not the same.

A war would decimate all the countries involved, scar whole generations, grow new hatreds. That is the best case scenario. We all know the worst case scenario.

This "poster" has said on another thread that a 9 year old boy deserves to be bullied as he's Russian and is scaring children. Do not engage.

Way to twist my words. Of course he does not deserve to be bullied! It's disgraceful. I only said it could be happening because of fear right now.

Damn, wish I had seen FFs warning before posting!

@FacebookPhotos

I think CowboyJo is getting a hard time here. There are lots of people who (understandably) think ww3 is coming regardless of what we do (or don’t do) so would prefer to get NATO involved now rather than waiting. It doesn’t mean they want ww3, just that they believe it to be inevitable.

I disagree because I think (or maybe it is hope) that Russian people / oligarchs will find a way to get rid of Putin before he invades a NATO country.

I think it's a pretty justified hard time. It's easy for someone to call for military action when they know it's another person's partner/child who'll go off to be shot at to appease their outrage.

No one gains anything from nuclear war, it would be grossly irresponsible of NATO to escalate the situation at this stage with that as a possible outcome.

It's more because it nato wants to avoid the absolute shit storm that would be world war 3. Which is blindingly understanding

Of course it's massive danger... escalating things but it might not lead too nuclear war.

We can all.fire them can't we!!

@ClaudineClare

But we can't stand here and do nothing. We stood up for Poland and started off the Second World War when Hitler was torturing its people, even when we weren't directly affected by Hitler's torture

I can't understand people who make statements like this. WW2 began over 80 years ago. The world is not the same. People are not the same. Weapons are not the same.

A war would decimate all the countries involved, scar whole generations, grow new hatreds. That is the best case scenario. We all know the worst case scenario.

Exactly It was a fair fight then. It really isn't now

@Tigersonvaseline

Of course it's massive danger... escalating things but it might not lead too nuclear war.

We can all.fire them can't we!!

Might not....oh well fabulous they fact the planet 'might not' be obliterated is very reassuring

My husband is actually seriously considering joining, so I'll have a very deep talk with him when he gets home. I am worried sick.

What a pity that Liz Truss didn't keep her mouth shut, instead of encouraging people to break the law and go off and fight. Unless he's from Ukraine and wants to defend his country.

They have.

Well obviously but in a parallel universe ...or even in a sliding doors situation with trump at the helm boasting about his biggliset nuke's... I'd just be interested too see what Putin would do.

The problem with invoking “but we stood up to Hitler when he invaded Poland” glosses over the fact that we pretty much looked the other way when he walked into Austria and the Sudetenland in 1938 under the pretext of reuniting German speaking people.

Peregrina

Unless Sen are involved the husband need's to take control over his own Life.

As a child he should have been taught...just because someone tells you to jump off a cliff would you?

He is the master of his owner destiny.

@Peregrina

My husband is actually seriously considering joining, so I'll have a very deep talk with him when he gets home. I am worried sick.

What a pity that Liz Truss didn't keep her mouth shut, instead of encouraging people to break the law and go off and fight. Unless he's from Ukraine and wants to defend his country.

If people have the skills to actually help, then I admire anyone who goes to fight with the Ukranian resistance.

Is there a solution too avoiding this?
What'if the UN had got straight in , peace keeping force facing Putin's when he massed around Ukraine...before a shot was fired?

What a pity that Liz Truss didn't keep her mouth shut, instead of encouraging people to break the law and go off and fight.

I've wondered what her motives were, I know many people think she's out of her depth but her comments were reckless (an understatement) beyond simple incompetence. Was it a way of getting special forces into the Ukraine by "disguising" them as civilian fighters?

I don't WANT war. It'd be devastating.

It sounds like you don’t really get what nuclear war would mean?

The nukes that the US dropped on Japan to end WW2 are child’s play compared to what we have now.

We’re not talking about a devastating war where a shit load of people die, but not you and the people you love.

We’d literally be talking about the end of civilisation for fucks sake.

“ The Soviet Union has built the largest thermonuclear bomb in human history so far, named the Tsar Bomba.

It has a fireball radius was 2.3 km, and a radiation radius is 7.49 km. Its Air blast radius is 12.51 km.

The heat from its detonation was capable of causing third-degree burns up to a distance of 62 miles from ground zero. Its shock wave was felt by the people as far away as 692 km, while window glasses up to 900 km were shattered.”

There are almost 14,000 nuclear bombs in the world.

As Einstein said, World War 4 will be fought spears…

I have some sympathy with @CowboyJo but hear me out. I think as per Fiona Hill that there is an inevitability that this conflict will expand beyond the borders of Ukraine eventually, history makes this fairly clear. This view is based on Putin’s own words and his clearly stated dreams of expansion based on historical Russian territories. I also think that cowering at the threat of nuclear weapons sets a really worrying precedent that all budding despots out there will take advantage of - all they need to do is threaten nuclear action, that foreign powers will be too scared to provoke them and so they are untouchable militarily. This will have undesirable consequences down the road. I am not saying don’t tread carefully but this global impotence is worrying. What if a NATO member is threatened, will we still be too scared to act? I think these questions do need to be asked and considered.

@CowboyJo

Warning from Tobias Elwood

We say NO to tasking the NATO alliance - but now endorse UK civilians, with no military training, to go and fight in Ukraine!

Please do NOT go if you have no combat experience.

You may get yourself and others who have to look after you, killed.

If you want to do something, why not donate.

People might want to read a bit more about what actually happened at the start of WWII.
Germany invaded Austria Sudetenland with no repercussions. It then invaded Poland and as the UK and France had a treaty with Poland they then declared war on Germany, however in practice they offered little tangible support and that period of time was referred to as the Phony War. The Soviet Union also actually invaded Poland in 1939 but with no pushback from the UK.
Things then only really heated up once Germany invaded France and Benelux, eight months later.

So no it wasn't exactly the case that the heroic Brits dashed to Poland's defence.

Should read Austria AND the Sudetenland.