The invasion is a Week Old...Part 7

[Damnloginpopup]

Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

Interestingly, the podcast I mentioned earlier in the thread mentioned that 20-odd years ago Putin was making quiet noises about joining NATO/entering a partnership.

I have distinct memories that Reagan offered the USSR "in" on Star Wars (or SDI for the pedants) on some impossible conditions.

@DuncinToffee

Pro Russian Conservative party lobby group is being disbanded.

The “Westminster Russian forum”, previously “Conservative friends of Russia” which lobbied for pro Russia funding for cash for Conservative MPs & party operations is being wound up.

That will upset Putin

one of the founding members being Carrie Symonds, as was.

@DuncinToffee

Pro Russian Conservative party lobby group is being disbanded.

The “Westminster Russian forum”, previously “Conservative friends of Russia” which lobbied for pro Russia funding for cash for Conservative MPs & party operations is being wound up.

That will upset Putin

Is this the one that was launched by Carrie Symonds and the chief executive of Vote Leave amongst others?

Ukranians saying that they believe negotiations to be genuine. In other words, crippling sanctions that have decimated the Russian economy, international pariah status, combined with the prospect of an unwinnable war against an insurgency has brought them to the negotiating table.

I really hope that's the case but I wouldn't trust Putin at all. A ceasefire might have convinced me Putin would act in good faith but instead the assault on Ukraine is intensifying. I'll wait and see, keep everything crossed and be delighted if I am wrong.

The “Westminster Russian forum”, previously “Conservative friends of Russia” which lobbied for pro Russia funding for cash for Conservative MPs & party operations is being wound up.

to be rewound with a different name (if it hasn't already).

Who the fuck would trust a word from this shower of shits ? Not I.

@CaveMum

Interestingly, the podcast I mentioned earlier in the thread mentioned that 20-odd years ago Putin was making quiet noises about joining NATO/entering a partnership.

What happened to those discussions I do not know, whether he was ignored or was just taking the West’s temperature?

I’ve heard this too. Seems fascinating would like to know more and if that would have led us somewhere else

From Bloomberg

RTB Is this the one that was launched by Carrie Symonds and the chief executive of Vote Leave amongst others?

Yes

I'm astonished at the twist And turns some poster's are getting into to lay the blame for Putin's invasion at the door of the older UK population And money being washed through London?? Via Boris Johnson??

Really??

BBC reports

Surge in arrivals in Finland from Russia

At Finland’s border crossing with Russia at Vaalimaa, 120 miles (193 kilometres) east of Helsinki, buses and cars stop for passport and customs checks.

These aren’t Ukrainians, they’re Russians - and although the flow isn't heavy, it is constant.

People are anxious to get out of Russia because there has been a persistent rumour that Vladimir Putin’s government might soon introduce martial law to deal with demonstrations against the invasion of Ukraine.

We spoke to one young Russian woman who was leaving for the West. She was in despair at what has been happening.

"People in Ukraine are our people – our family," she says. "We shouldn't be killing them."

Would she think of going back, I asked?

"Not while our dreadful government is there. It is so, so sad."

There's immense sympathy for people like her in Finland, just as there is for Ukraine and its inhabitants.

This sympathy, and the fear that Russia might lash out at other neighbours like Finland itself, is changing attitudes to Finland’s traditional neutrality.

According to the latest opinion polls, a growing majority of Finns believe that it’s time for their country to join Nato and get the protection that membership of the alliance would bring.

[quote Yeahthat]@CowboyJo

I'll ask you the same questions I asked someone else on here:

If you want to simply "Do Something" regardless of the results (the possible annihilation of all of humanity in a nuclear war), then why aren't you prepared to join Ukraine's Foreign Legion? I guess because when you actually have to make the same calculation for yourself personally that NATO leaders are now making on behalf of all of the human race, the reality of the decision becomes patent. You're not willing to risk your own destruction, for something that may have no material benefit either to Ukraine or the wider world.

Secondly, since human rights are a central issue here - if you're willing to risk the survival of all of humanity on your bet on the reaction of an unhinged dictator, then how about people from South America, Africa, Asia etc that may have an entirely different view? How about people here that have a different view?

If a hardliner within NATO were prepared to possibly escalate a conflict between two countries into a global, nuclear war, does anyone else get a say in that?

I don't know how anyone rational can want to escalate this conflict. It's telling that no NATO member sees this as a desirable option either.[/quote]
Nobody wants war.

But we can't stand here and do nothing. We stood up for Poland and started off the Second World War when Hitler was torturing its people, even when we weren't directly affected by Hitler's torture.

I believe we will do the same thing.

some poster's are getting into to lay the blame for Putin's invasion at the door of the older UK population

I think the original premise was that it was the older Russian population who went along with Putin's antics

@Tigersonvaseline

I'm astonished at the twist And turns some poster's are getting into to lay the blame for Putin's invasion at the door of the older UK population And money being washed through London?? Via Boris Johnson??

Really??

I'm not saying that at all.

I am saying that they there is rampant corruption and self interest above the national interest.

If we hadn't had this problem we may have put in stronger sanctions previously.

Plus the sanctions that have just been put in, might actually be working around rather than all this footdragging.

It does look like its pissing off a few though:

Nus Ghani MP @Nus_Ghani
Sanctions need to be water tight to hit Putin- his Oligarchs, their assets and Western enablers.
Have tabled amendments with Magnitsky Sanction MPs to Monday’s emergency legislation.
We need to fix the law fast and expose those complicit with Putin.

Its not a great look for someone who already is facing accusations about his wife's interference and is caught up in a scandal.

But we can't stand here and do nothing. We stood up for Poland and started off the Second World War when Hitler was torturing its people, even when we weren't directly affected by Hitler's torture

The difference was that we undertook to help Poland if it was invaded.

Same with Belgium in 1914.

It's a grey area this time - Ukraine isn't a NATO member but we did promise to respect Ukraine's sovereignty when it gave up its nuclear weapons. However, the wording clearly doesn't say that we have to get involved if someone else refuses to respect that sovereignty.

@Damnloginpopup

Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

My husband is actually seriously considering joining, so I'll have a very deep talk with him when he gets home. I am worried sick.

Obviously I am staying at home - I have four young children who all need me to take care of them. They will be devastated to learn their dad is going to war, and my heart is breaking thinking about what will happen to him and them.

Sorry wrong quote, this is to the poster who asked me why i didn't join Ukraine's foreign legion

*But we can't stand here and do nothing. We stood up for Poland and started off the Second World War when Hitler was torturing its people, even when we weren't directly affected by Hitler's torture.

I believe we will do the same thing*

Will you and hubby be taking up arms to fight then? It's not very brave to call for war if you intend to stay at home and watch other people die.

Sorry if it's been mentioned already but PBS Frontline uploaded a 2015 documentary from their archives a couple of days ago. It touches on the Kremlin's creep into European cities including London.

I'm not knowledgable enough to say for certain everything in it is correct but I found it useful in making sense of some things.

@CowboyJo

Sorry wrong quote, this is to the poster who asked me why i didn't join Ukraine's foreign legion

Nothing new under the sun.

@Tigersonvaseline

I'm astonished at the twist And turns some poster's are getting into to lay the blame for Putin's invasion at the door of the older UK population And money being washed through London?? Via Boris Johnson??

Really??

In terms of what would have prevented this it would take far stronger actions than some of these mentioned

@Squidinkk

*But we can't stand here and do nothing. We stood up for Poland and started off the Second World War when Hitler was torturing its people, even when we weren't directly affected by Hitler's torture.

I believe we will do the same thing*

Will you and hubby be taking up arms to fight then? It's not very brave to call for war if you intend to stay at home and watch other people die.

I already said. DH is highly considering it. I have four kids to look after and MIGHT be pregnant.

From past behaviour, Putin is extraordinarily skilled at sewing dissension between allies, corrupting institutions and creating strife and discord. Agreed that he will not hold his hand back from using the nuclear option.

If it gets to that stage @RedToothBrush do you think it will stay as small battlefield nukes?

@DuncinToffee

RTB Is this the one that was launched by Carrie Symonds and the chief executive of Vote Leave amongst others?

Yes

recently read that Carrie was educated at the same school as Abramovich's older daughters. Although she must be a few years older than them so wouldn't actually have been part of the Oligarch party scene I suppose. I wonder what Shirley Williams would make of what has become of her daughter's then grammar school that her policies abolished with the intent that it would become a comp, not another elite private establishment. Talk about unintended consequences.

mobile.twitter.com/thetimes/status/1499710190253400065

Can anyone explain what this means please? Does it mean that the assassination attempts are being sabotaged from within? Thanks

@CowboyJo

• Nuclear weapons change everything.

• We aren't doing nothing, we're arming and funding the resistance and have applied sanctions that have demolished Russia's economy.

I don't think it's acceptable to go through with an action of that magnitude simply for the emotional payoff of having taken action, regardless of the results.

I won't agree with - but at least have some respect for - your husband's position when he's willing to, in reality, risk his own survival in the same way he hypothetically wants our leaders to risk all of humanity's by betting on the reaction of an unhinged dictator.