The invasion is a Week Old...Part 7

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Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

US to activate nuclear response team: Official

I'd hazard a guess that now Russia have shown themselves prepared to open fire at a nuclear power station the US want a response team on alert. A reasonable precaution, but not an indicator that anything serious is imminent.

Just to reiterate what is being said is various news outlets - the fire was in an ancillary building not a reactor building and there has been no release of radioactive material. The usual site operators are staying to run the reactor (albeit under Russian control).

These are the people to follow for key updates on nuclear related issues imo:

twitter.com/iaeaorg

@yoolia this doesn’t look like the actions of someone who’s terrified of catching Covid:

www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/3/why-was-pakistans-pm-in-russia-amid-ukraine-invasion

Believe me, I want him to snuff it as much as anyone else - I’m just pointing out that he may not be in ill health at all, we don’t know.

Why the fuck would they bomb nuclear power plants

It makes tactical sense as long as they don’t actually intend to blow it up. To scare Ukrainians into surrender and even exert a psychological power play on all of Europe that they cannot depend on nuclear for energy.

If there is any awareness on the part of military command that a stray missile could lead to a full on radiation leak, this is plainly suicidal and madness because radiation knows no territorial borders.

@toastfiend I think it’s the threat of nuclear attack/explosion that’s got me feeling like this.
I feel desperately sorry for the people of Ukraine, of course. But I also keep thinking about my own child.
I guess it’s because Putin has been painted as this figure who is almost like a Bond villain…sitting with a big button in front of him, ready to inflict his power on his enemies. I suppose I’ve watched too many films/read too many books.

I don’t want to seem selfish as I know I’m not in Ukraine, but it’s hard to rationalise with the media talking about nuclear threat constantly.

He makes everyone test and isolate before they see him due to covid, again that's well documented. Imran K will have been tested.

I never said he was in ill health BTW. IMO he's a coward.

"After the Second World War there was a lot of bloodshed between Poles and Ukrainians so this has really warmed my heart and given me hope for Europe in the future. After the war Poles that had been living in Ukraine for generations and Ukrainians that had been living in Poland were forced to leave, often brutally."

Some clarification needed here I think. I suspect that when this person says "2nd world war" they actually mean "1st world war".

1. Poland did not exist in recent centuries until 1919 (established by the Treaty of Versailles), until then it had been a 'province' (enforced!) of Russia.

1. Between 1917 and 1922 there were numerous conflicts between Bolshevik Russia (from Nov 1917), the new Poland established at Versailles (from 1919), and the short lived Ukrainian independent republic (1918-21). There was also some attempted western intervention in the region against Bolshevik Russia.

1. During this time borders shifted according to the fortunes of war. Germany briefly occupied much of present day Ukraine and Poland following the little remembered Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, signed by the new Bolshevik Russian government and Germany in late 1917. After the defeat of Germany the region was in a state of conflict until 1922, when Poland's border with Bolshevik Russia was finally agreed. The big losers were the Ukrainians, who lost their war against Bolshevik Russia and unwillingly became, at gunpoint, part of Bolshevik Russia.

1. FACT - Ukraine was systematically starved in 1932-3 by Stalin, who sent his army there to steal most of the food the Ukrainians had grown that summer. Estimated deaths 5 million. This is one of the forgotten genocides of the 20th century. If I were Ukrainian I would have absolutely NO truck with Russian government or domination whatsoever!

1. The present day border between western Ukraine (formerly part of Russia) and Poland is the direct result of the Nazi-Soviet Pact of August 1939, when in September 1939 Germany and Russia each annexed about half of 1919-39 Poland.

1. Post World War 2, the Polish border with Germany also shifted westwards to its current position. Present day Poland is about 100-200 miles west of 1919-39 Poland.

1. In 1900 the city of Lemburg was in the Austro-Hungarian empire. In 1919 it became part of Poland and was renamed Lvov. In 1939 it was conquered by Bolshevik Russia and was renamed Lviv. It then became part of Ukraine in 1991. So, in 122 years the city has been part of 4 different countries. In eastern Europe such situations are more common than we in the west realise.

1. SO, unfortunately, if Putin were to claim that Lviv is "part of Russia", he would be semantically correct, but it was only part of Russia in recent times for 52 years, conquered by force, and never with any kind of democratic mandate.

Hope that helps a bit.

I worded that clumsily, we obviously are affected, but there's not an immediate threat to life or likelihood of danger for us at the present time and we should be very thankful for that.

This.

LogBurning

You can avoid most of the exposure to this, I did for a period. I had some urgent pressing things to attend to, and I extended that time after I'd done them. No news on, just music, no SM, a walk in the rain and home for a cuppa and a crumpet.
Focus on what is important, your little one who I'm sure brings much joy to you.

But I can’t completely avoid what’s happening as it’s everywhere.

You can today. Turn off news alerts, don't look at social media, don't watch the news.

[quote FacebookPhotos]US to activate nuclear response team: Official

I'd hazard a guess that now Russia have shown themselves prepared to open fire at a nuclear power station the US want a response team on alert. A reasonable precaution, but not an indicator that anything serious is imminent.

Just to reiterate what is being said is various news outlets - the fire was in an ancillary building not a reactor building and there has been no release of radioactive material. The usual site operators are staying to run the reactor (albeit under Russian control).

These are the people to follow for key updates on nuclear related issues imo:

twitter.com/iaeaorg[/quote]
Just to say - it's the Department of Energy's Nuclear Incident Response team, so doesn't seem to be indicating a military escalation at this stage, more a reaction to the relative increase in the risk of an accident. Which is obviously concerning, but it doesn't sound like it's retaliatory nuclear sabre rattling.

[quote notimagain]@parafirstjoint

A Ukrainian was interviewed asking what he needs from us, the US, France etc. He said stuff to protect his body so he can fight. The reporter said that won’t be coming. I don’t know if I heard that wrongly but surely we can provide basic body protection, helmets etc.

I would have thought so as well, we know the Germans have managed to ship helmets, though it might be it’s more important to get ordnance to the front line than body armour etc.

Difficult to get the context without hearing/seeing the report but reporter’s comment sounds speculative and putting it very politely very unnecessary.[/quote]
Literally a tiny village in Poland could have shipped helmets. The way Germany has behaved is utterly pathetic.

Great post MusicMan. I have a couple of books by a writer called Bernard Newman. He did some travels in the Soviet Union in the 1960s and went to Lviv and I remember him writing about all its name changes. Michael Portillo went there on one of his Great European Rail Journeys and I thought it looked lovely and wanted to go - may have missed my chance now .

Just looked him (Newman) up on Wikipedia actually - I didn't realise he was a relative of George Eliot!

I’m going to say this in a delicate fashion, please be aware that there may be people trying to rile up those with anxiety on these threads.

Ukraine was systematically starved in 1932-3 by Stalin, who sent his army there to steal most of the food the Ukrainians had grown that summer. Estimated deaths 5 million. This is one of the forgotten genocides of the 20th century. If I were Ukrainian I would have absolutely NO truck with Russian government or domination whatsoever!

I wasn't aware of this, thanks @MusicMan65

Explains the Ukrainian resistance, this is in living history. They will have parents and grandparents who will have talked about this. They'd rather die than be under Russian control.

@CallyfromBlakes7

In the meantime, everyone has to beg Germany not to be an absolute jerk

in what way? I thought it was the UK government that were being the jerks by not waiving the visa requirement for Ukranians.

Their pathetic approach to sanctions, unwillingness to move away from Russian energy and to send any kind of weapons or defences

@CaveMum

I’m going to say this in a delicate fashion, please be aware that there may be people trying to rile up those with anxiety on these threads.

I have already reported a few posters who I believe to be doing this.

Ukraine was systematically starved in 1932-3 by Stalin, who sent his army there to steal most of the food the Ukrainians had grown that summer. Estimated deaths 5 million. This is one of the forgotten genocides of the 20th century. If I were Ukrainian I would have absolutely NO truck with Russian government or domination whatsoever

I didn't know about this (although I knew Stalin was responsible for many millions of deaths across the Soviet Union) until I read a book on the history of the Soviet Union that I had had since I was a student but hadn't read. Coincidentally there was an article in the Sunday Times around the same time about a Welsh guy who had been in Ukraine at the time and tried to get reports out to the West about what was going on.

I’m going to say this in a delicate fashion, please be aware that there may be people trying to rile up those with anxiety on these threads.

Yes I would have to agree with that.

It’s referred to as The Holodomor (famine)

From a selfish perspective for the rest of the world I also feel comforted by the line set up between the US and Russia - to avoid misinterpretation of action between the two sides. May be naive of me, but it’s definitely better than there not being a line!

I am planning to donate via the DEC link but is there anything else that can be done to help people in Ukraine or those fleeing? Apologies if this has been asked recently- the threads are so fast moving.

What we should understand is that Kiev, historically, is the cradle of Slavic civilisation. It contains many very old buildings, artworks etc that are of world importance, despite having been trashed during WW2. The Ukrainians waited 1000 years to finally get their own country rather than always being a minority in Russia, Austria-Hungary, Poland etc. I don't know about you, but if I had waited 1000 years to have a country I would definitely fight for it, and then some!

I didn't know about this (although I knew Stalin was responsible for many millions of deaths across the Soviet Union)

Our history teacher commented that the only difference between the Nazis and the Soviets was the Nazis kept records.

are very young, very terrified young men from rural parts of deepest, poorest Russia with no real education Really?

www.newstatesman.com/culture/film/2020/02/mr-jones-how-welsh-journalist-exposed-horror-stalin-s-ukraine-famines?qt-trending=0

Especially if my country was invaded by a man whose grandfather was Stalin's cook (that's actually true...)