How do people who are not online navigate life?

[Featuredcreature]

Honestly it really baffles me, life these days especially in covid times is complicated and intricate. I kind of had a taste of this by being very depressed, for a long time I just didn't deal with anything, ignored bills and just got through each day by the skin of my teeth.

I'm literate (supposedly) fairly used to computers and online life and its a mare. I am recovering slowly, sorting things out, although I'm skint i am able to get by.

How do people who are not literate, nevermind online literate navigate all this crap? I spent a bit of time on jsa and was sent on many pointless courses, obviously they were tedious as fuck. I met many lovely people who were so vulnerable. I'm not sure if the cessation of these (EU funded, alas gone) courses is a good thing or not. I am glad that that frankly inadequate and sometimes fucking sleazy and odd course leaders are out of a gravy train, but the people involved are probably now extremely isolated and forgotten.

What happens to those people now?

A surprisingly large chunk of Citizens Advice work is helping people with form filling, especially online. What we forget is that moving everything online means that as well as a suitable device and internet connection, you also need a higher level of literacy and focus than when you could just phone up an organisation and explain what you needed to someone who could break it into small steps for you and ask questions.

@bilbodog

I think we all forget how NEW the internet is - everyday use and emails for everything only started about 15 years ago!

Im 65 now but am computer literate because ive always worked in an office and my DH worked in computers so we had one at home even when i was a SAHM for a few years.

I have friends who never worked in an office environment and in their 50s have limited ability on a computer.

I wouldnt expect many people over 70 to be very good on-line as they have had such limited experience of this in life.

I do struggle with some things on-line and have to get my kids to help as i am now getting ‘old’ myself 🤣🤣🤣

I think you're a bit out here - I would say at least 20 years. 15 years ago was 2007 - I was in uni and most of it was based around online access, it definitely wasn't anything new or unusual. Lectures were online, we had applied to ucas online, submitted coursework online etc etc. We were all on Facebook, and even had (very slow and expensive) Internet access on our phones. All the halls had Internet access, some through a plug in but others wireless, and everyone had a laptop or computer they bought to uni. I had an ipod from about 2003 and downloaded most of the songs on there from limewire, as did all my friends. When i got my first full time office job in 2008 all the other staff (aged 20-60) used the internet constantly and had replaced all their paper files with digital versions years earlier, and this was in a small county council, not a high tech london private business.

Saying you wouldnt expect someone over 70 to be any good online is really offensive. Some 70 year olds (and older) could have been the original software programmers, enigma code machine decoders, etc.!

I work in a job center in the EU. We have pcs available and 2 members of staff to help for 8 hours a week spread over 3 days. This week I have withdrawn the obligation to book meetings from one of my clients. But that is the first time Ive done that in 3 years. There are some funded projects around - drop in cafes for vulnerable people, there's something similar on the estate where lots of non eu nationals live. You have to ask for help, but help is given gladly.

DM is in her 80s and having a tech-minded brother, there were computers in the house from the mid-80s when she was in her 40s. She's chosen not to engage with technology and is proud that she has nothing to do with it... except it's all done by piggy-backing off DB and her more savy friends. She's not genuinely living off her non-tech inititative. That's the frustrating bit. If she acknowledged that reality or had tried, I'd feel more forgiving.

But cost, learning difficulties, neurodivergence and access are issues.

I walked to the counter to pay for swimming the other day and was asked "did you book online?" and answered smiling, "no, your website hates me". He did laugh. I had tried booking it and knew there was capacity, but the system didn't like my card. If I'm booking for the family, each person is a seperate transaction. I'm perfectly competent but it is just an awful, unreliable, not very intuitive interface, and life is just much easier to rock up and say "laned swim please" and hand over £4.50.

*My dad (late 60s) cannot work a computer. As in, he cannot even turn it on. He has no interest at all. My mum does anything necessary online, doctors scripts, etc. They pay all bills by direct debit/ banking is still down in person.

It flabbers my gast*

I can totally relate to this. My mum was reasonably computer literate and did everything related to the internet. She died last year and my stepdad is so bloody stubborn and refuses point blank to learn or even try the basics. I bought him an Alexa recently for a bit of company and he can't even cope with that!

Very interesting post OP. I've thought about this before.
Must be very strange not to be online at all, I really don't know how I'd manage

My dad is 62, he has an iPhone but hates doing stuff online, and thinks I’m really mean for showing him how to do stuff rather than just doing it for him. He doesn’t seem to get that things are very unlikely to go backwards!

I think you're a bit out here - I would say at least 20 years. 15 years ago was 2007 - I was in uni and most of it was based around online access

You were at uni. Believe it or not, some people were not. I used to train mature students coming back to education on IT, many at this time did not know how to use a mouse. Many of that generation also did not go back to Uni.

I’m afraid the comment about being offensive set my teeth on edge as it carried overtones of inappropriate levels of political correctness, but I may be being over sensitive. Perhaps if we were less worried about ‘offence’ and more worried about practical realities this country would be in a better place. It’s true that some older people did use computers, but many more did not and recognising that is not ‘offensive’. Nor is it ‘offensive’ to recognise that moving services entirely online is not accessible to all for a variety of reasons, and will never be acceptable to others for many more.

And I meant to add, the pace of change at the moment is unprecedented and incredible, it’s almost as if we are having a new industrial revolution every other year. It’s one that requires ridiculous levels of knowledge and specialisms, and far too much energy. We need more thinking about the impacts on people and society and environment, not less: but it won’t happen because a few make lots of money out of it.

My friend is not online. It took me 18 months to sort his bank account out when he was admitted to a nursing home. It was during the first lockdown. So he couldn't go in person. It was an absolute nightmare.

@RaspberriesToYouToo

I think you're a bit out here - I would say at least 20 years. 15 years ago was 2007 - I was in uni and most of it was based around online access

You were at uni. Believe it or not, some people were not. I used to train mature students coming back to education on IT, many at this time did not know how to use a mouse. Many of that generation also did not go back to Uni.

I’m afraid the comment about being offensive set my teeth on edge as it carried overtones of inappropriate levels of political correctness, but I may be being over sensitive. Perhaps if we were less worried about ‘offence’ and more worried about practical realities this country would be in a better place. It’s true that some older people did use computers, but many more did not and recognising that is not ‘offensive’. Nor is it ‘offensive’ to recognise that moving services entirely online is not accessible to all for a variety of reasons, and will never be acceptable to others for many more.

I also said I was in full time work just 2 years later. And while I was a young student in uni, there were also the mature students, and all the lecturers, admin staff etc who were actual adults, up to their 70s and were the ones actually putting all the lectures online. So the comment that the internet was something new and unusual at that time was, in my experience, completely wrong. But if my personal experience is not sufficient evidence/too partisan for you, it is backed up by actual statistics www.statista.com/statistics/275999/household-internet-penetration-in-great-britain/ by 2007 (i.e. the 15 years ago the poster I was responding to stated) 61% of UK households had access to the Internet. Hardly some brand new, untested thing.

I didn't say it was offensive to recognise that moving services online is not accessible, I was replying to a very specific point the poster said, which was "I wouldn't expect many people over 70 to be very good on-line."

I maintain that is offensive because it is a huge generalisation. 70 is hardly ancient today, a huge proportion of 70 year olds, if they retired in the last decade would have had to use the internet daily in the vast majority of office jobs. I know (personally and through work) 70, 80 and 90 year olds who use the internet to do their own genealogy research and teach others, do full U3A courses, stream tv and music, do all their banking, buy and sell on ebay, manage their own businesses, etc. Therefore while of course there are some people aged 70 (or even younger) who can't do those things, suggesting most of them can't, to the extent you'd be surprised if they could, is, in my view, offensive.

But you have completely ignored what I was actually responding to (even though it was directly quoted) and (mis)interpreted it to fit your own view.

No I didn’t. By your stats there 39% did not have access to the internet, which is rather significant. Plus access to the internet does not mean everyone in the household was fully computer fluent. But whatever. If you want to take offence and worry about offence so much that’s up to you.

@BodgertheJogger

Very interesting post OP. I've thought about this before. Must be very strange not to be online at all, I really don't know how I'd manage

I suspect you would only find it strange because you're used to being online, though.

If you've never been online or used a computer, your life is just carrying on as it always has.

I think this is an issue that will only get worse in coming decades. My DC have grown up with the internet; I remember when they were in primary school all communications were on paper, whereas now my youngest are sixth formers and absolutely everything is online. DH and I are internet savvy as we need to be for our jobs. I also confess that I probably enjoy Facebook too much. My parents have also learned to use the internet for practical reasons, but I do have to offer help sometimes. However, DH’s mother who passed away a few years ago never used the internet and didn’t have it installed at her home. In the last few years of her life many things became difficult for her as banking, government services etc. moved online. If you don’t use the internet nowadays you are unfortunately going to feel quite marginalised and be ‘out of the loop’ socially and economically.

We have neighbours with no access to the Internet at all. They say they don't understand it even though they have been offered free classes at the library. There are no DC to help. We and some other neighbours try to keep them in the loop with local things they don't get. Eg when we had a power cut I let them know the estimated time we were going to be reconnected as stated on our Facebook page.

They are forever going to the tip with garden rubbish. A garden bin can be ordered and paid for online and we have offered to do this and they can pay us back but they just keep driving to the tip

My wife struggles with literacy she got roughly 80hrs tuition spread over 2yrs, so in essence 2 working weeks. She had a spell of unemployment and was told by her assessor to go online. If u struggle with a pen how n fuck would you manage a computer. More empathy and understanding would go a long way to help people with the aforementioned problems.

@ChiefInspectorParker

I agree that there are some people who get ‘left behind’ because of their inability to be online or use technology, or because of literacy issues and yes, those people need plenty of support. They are probably people who are quite vulnerable in general, so if they lack that support it’s very hard for them.

However there are people who simply refuse to engage, which is ridiculous when you think how long the internet has been around. People who don’t use email, for example. It’s ridiculous and even if they’re 80 now, that means they’ve been refusing to engage since they were in their early fifties!

I fully agree, especially the second group. I have utmost sympathy for those who can't use computers due to disability or who are very old, but no sympathy at all for the stubborn ones (of all ages) who don't have a valid reason other than they "don't want to" or can't be bothered to learn.

The internet is nothing new. It's been around for 30 years. Email has been pretty common for 20 years. Online banking likewise 20 years+ as has online shopping. Home/personal computers were around 20 years before that, right back to the early 80s - over 50 years since the Sinclair ZX80/ZX81, over 40 years since the BBC computer rolled out into schools.

What really gets my goat are the ones who are happy to use social media to post pictures of their cats etc., but seemingly unable to do anything useful online like shopping or banking.

I'd like to see plenty of support for the first group, either to get them online if feasible or some alternative support for those who can't, like libraries, or other community "hubs" where they can get others to do it for them or help them do it themselves. "Helping" the latter group I think is like banging your head against a brick wall and they'll only get with it when it starts to really disadvantage them. You can lead a horse to water and all that!

@RaspberriesToYouToo

I think you're a bit out here - I would say at least 20 years. 15 years ago was 2007 - I was in uni and most of it was based around online access

You were at uni. Believe it or not, some people were not. I used to train mature students coming back to education on IT, many at this time did not know how to use a mouse. Many of that generation also did not go back to Uni.

I’m afraid the comment about being offensive set my teeth on edge as it carried overtones of inappropriate levels of political correctness, but I may be being over sensitive. Perhaps if we were less worried about ‘offence’ and more worried about practical realities this country would be in a better place. It’s true that some older people did use computers, but many more did not and recognising that is not ‘offensive’. Nor is it ‘offensive’ to recognise that moving services entirely online is not accessible to all for a variety of reasons, and will never be acceptable to others for many more.

So because some mature students 15 years ago didn't know how to use the internet that means hardly anyone could? And lots of people still don't now? Really don't get the correlation there.... Agree with other posters, the internet isn't "new" and hasn't been for a while. Libraries etc have been offering free computer classes for years. In the UK in 2022, excepting any learning disabilities or literary issues, if people can't manage basic IT it's because they don't want to.

And I meant to add, the pace of change at the moment is unprecedented and incredible, it’s almost as if we are having a new industrial revolution every other year. It’s one that requires ridiculous levels of knowledge and specialisms, and far too much energy. We need more thinking about the impacts on people and society and environment, not less: but it won’t happen because a few make lots of money out of it.

You are right. I've always worked in offices so had to learn to use computers, but the speed at which everything is changing is making me feel a bit left behind. People seem to come last in all this change. My boss was in a bank, just after cheques were phased out here, and heard one of the staff being rude to a man in his 90s who wanted some help. If that is the way people are being treated then no wonder they start to retreat from life. I realise this sort of behaviour is not the norm, but it only takes one unpleasant person to damage someone's confidence.

The thing is that people with learning disabilities or poor literacy would have struggled and needed help with paper based documents too.

It’s not just office jobs either. Most shop tills, restaurant ordering systems, etc are touch screen based now. As are lots of manual/skilled jobs.

@user1497207191

The thing is that people with learning disabilities or poor literacy would have struggled and needed help with paper based documents too.

Doing a paper form with poor literacy can be easier as you can just write what you can. Internet forms usually dont let you not answer questions.

People are way out when they talk about how long all of this has been common. I was sent on a work course on how to use emails along with all other managers about 23 years ago. I could use email, but lots of the other managers could not. For those not in an office job, email came later for most.
And computers in the 80s were very basic and expensive. Most schools had one or two computers only and most children never used one.
My DP did not have to use a computer at all at work until about 10 years ago - a practical job, and really struggled.
We still have all our bills by direct debit, I don't see what the issue is with that.

Someone above said that for people who have never used the Internet, life continues as it always did; I don't see how this can be true. There is an assumption in almost every area I can think of that everyone can use online services, access information etc., hence banks and Post Offices closing branches, online-only savings accounts, booking plane tickets, entertainments, and so on.

My mum is 72 and completely competent online and hasn't been into a shop for the last couple of years as everything is purchased inline. But, she used computers / email / spreadsheets etc in her job for the last 25 years before she retired and has actually started a new part time job recently just for a bit more money, and that is all working from home online.

My dad too (separated) is completely competent online but again, his job required it when he was working.

Our cleaner is in her mid 50s and very timid about the internet. The last couple of years she has started to do more out of necessity but it is still limited. She has never worked in an office so has never learned these things.