Why do schools finish at 3?

[snowdropsandcrocuses]

Genuine question but before teachers come gunning for me, let me explain.

In particular I am referring to secondary schools here and have just been reading the thread on teachers having ridiculously short lunch breaks which got me thinking.

Why is there such a rush to finish school early? Finishing school at 4pm for example, would allow longer lunch breaks (giving teachers and pupils a full break plus allowing lunch clubs more time), could factor in a little more transition time and just take a bit of pressure off. It would definitely help parents as well. I'm struggling to see the negatives. This is not to say I want teachers to work even harder because I don't but I wonder if there is a particular mandate that dictates the maximum 'opening hours' of comprehensive schools?

@Howshouldibehave

Better than having those hours without the long holidays, as many of us do

You are, of course more than welcome to become a teacher as well, if the long holidays are so appealing to you.

Hear hear.

I am in my 2nd year of primary teaching.

I have worked at MacDonald’s; as an office cleaner; as a 5* hotel
Cleaner. Have worked in pubs, cafes, factory assembly lines; Nanny; kibbutz kitchen dishwasher; greengrocers; scullery maid at a Scottish hunting lodge, split shifts 6 am - 11.30 pm, plucking grouse and learning that adding Banana to a fruit salad was very non U. Taught at Japanese junior high school; ‘proper’ London office job; childminder, teacher.

Nothing in my life, living in 5 countries has been as hard work as a primary school teacher in a tough London primary. I have been spat at, kicked, punched, doors shut on me - and that’s just y2-y4 kids. I get into work between 7-7.15 ish and leave at 6pm as they turn off the lights and set the alarm. Whilst the kids go home at 3.20, TAs are only paid until 3.30, so I then tidy the classroom - esp if there was Art - they are only 6, so only so much they can do. Then there might be weekly staff meeting - usually until 4.30- 5 ish. Then marking of 30 English books, some maths books (try to ‘live mark in lesson’; 30 topic books; 30 Guided Reading books. Displays (TAs now in interventions so display stuff is before or after school). Calls to Parents. Calls to outside agencies. Reports to write for aforementioned outside agencies. Individual Education profiles to
Manage for 12/30 in my class. Emails to answer. Lessons to plan and resource.

Then home at 6. Talk to own family. Try and do some more work 8- 10 ish, rinse and repeat. My contracted hours are 6 1/4 a day. I do that pretty much by the end of lunchtime each day!

I don’t write this as a ‘oh what a martyr ‘ way. It’s only school: I am not an a&e nurse during covid times - or any time.

But it IS irritating when people think it’s a cushy number, and do that whole ‘oh the holidays’. It’s not worth it. The holidays are not holidays when you spend it marking/ planning. You are just working from home, like a lot of people do.

You can’t have a day off. You can never switch off. You work (unpaid) most weekends. As soon as youngest dc is at secondary, I am reluctantly moving to another sector. I LOVE the kids, tough crowd as they are, I really enjoy the 9-3. It’s the unpaid other 30 odd hours a week teachers can’t cope with. The constant additional demands, with more troubled children and less support. The contempt in which the profession is held. And it’s not a few of us being pathetic - it’s why there is a retention crisis in the profession.

I really don’t get why secondary age kids need to be supervised at lunchtime. I live down the road from the local secondary school and they all come down the street to the shops to buy lunch. This is a comprehensive in Scotland. All ages, not just from 16 or whatever year 11 means. That’s what it was like at my school - an hour for lunch, in which we got lunch either from the canteen or went up the street, and/or wandered around the park or the playing fields. You didn’t have to stay on school grounds, although some people did, and there weren’t that many clubs unless you were male and played football. From what I can see (my kids are younger) lunchtimes can’t have changed that much. Kids need a break, lunch, and a chance to socialise.

Break time used to be supervised by the prefects but I guess that isn’t a thing that happens anymore!

Same with me. They had quite a bit of power and could hand punishments like essays and after school detentions.

The school day was 8:45 to 4:45 with an hour for lunch and fifteen minute break in the morning.

It’s funny that if you read posts about private vs state schools, most of MN jump on to say a bright child will achieve the same whether they are in private or state. Judging by this thread, how on earth can a bright child get the same level of education as one who has a decent lunch break to unwind, attend clubs to encourage lateral thinking and improve their knowledge and have rested teachers teaching them through the afternoon?

@Mostlyjustrunning

Secondary age kids don’t need to be supervised at lunch, do they?

Ours do So we all have to do lunch time duties twice a week - I HATE it!

Behaviour and learning declines in afternoon and long lunch breaks don’t help with that. Lots of after school sports clubs etc staffed by teachers too. When I was a teacher I’d often be at work until six helping kids after school, marking and planning for the next day. And still sometimes need to take stuff home. I’d generally have gotten in at 7.30 too.

@erinnnnn

An hour lunch break would be such hard work. They are wild even in primary- not used to playing outdoors like back in the day.

My secondary school finished at 4pm with 1hr lunch break. How do kids do sports clubs/drama/ music etc at lunch if the break is so short?

Independent schools for both my secondary DC - finish at 4pm . Have 1hr 10 and 1hr 20 for lunch - idea being plenty of times for clubs etc. Local outstanding comp has 30 mins and twice a week finish at 2.45pm. If you go to a club you often have to eat your lunch at break. My understanding is that it’s cheaper for schools to have a shorter break since less time paid to supervise so that why schools choose to go down this route . It certainly hasn’t done our local comp any harm since they have excellent results but it does sound very rushed.

@apple1971 - one word, Michaela.

I really don’t get why secondary age kids need to be supervised at lunchtime. I live down the road from the local secondary school and they all come down the street to the shops to buy lunch.

Shops near schools tend to have signs on the doors saying 'only two school children at a time'.

I wonder why?

Back in the day, when we were set free at lunch to roam down the woods or down town or even home to watch telly for a bit, we would regularly be banned from Woolies because of all the nicking. The chippies did well. But the other shops, not not much.

We are central Scotland, our primary schools all typically close at 3pm, in our council area recently high school hours have changed, they now open Monday to Thursday 8.55 until 3.45 and Fridays 8.55 until 12.30!! Your child can opt to stay on for the afternoon and take part in some activities branded Future Fridays or they can choose just to go home.

@ShallWeTalkAboutBruno

Bloody hell, it’s no wonder kids play up if they’re constantly being told they’re ‘wild’ and ‘cause havoc’ and can’t be trusted to have a decent lunch break.

I had an office that overlooked the playground and fields.

It was like watching an Attenborough narrated episode where you could see the different groups, dynamics and the opportunities/taking of opportunities for mayhem. The fluid mechanics of a fight brewing are only different in that your average herd of Zebra don't sprint across specifically to watch the lions tear gazelles limb from limb whilst the Giraffes deliberately cause a diversion to increase the disorientation of any elephants thinking of stopping the entertainment and to have a secondary scrap with the birds that are usually sat on the hippos' arses.

I was a barmaid in my youth. There's a vibe you get when it's about to kick off. It's exactly the same in school as in a pub.

@snowdropsandcrocuses

Interesting responses.

To those who are surprised by the 3pm finish, our local secondary starts at 8:35 and finishes at 3pm.

To the teachers that have responded, I'm interested to know what your 'contracted hours' are. I realise that with the onslaught of academies which essentially privatised the school system under our noses that the old 'public sector' rules went out the window but I am assuming you all have contracted hours. What are you 'supposed' to work. I note some have said 8-4 would push them over their 40hr week however lunch breaks are not paid so 8-4 Monday to Friday would equal 40hrs - minus 1hr lunch/break which would equal 7hour days x 5 = 35hours.

I realise teachers work many many more hours than that - which is supposedly balanced out by your holidays (I know you work them too).

Ummm teachers don't get 'lunch breaks'.

Crikey. I hate that they finish at 3.30. Where I come from our schools start at 8 and finish at 2-2.30 pm. Then kids go home, nap, have tea, do home work and then play. I liked that better. Feels like my child is always busy and doesn't rest.

My DDs secondary finishes at 2.30. They start at 8.20. She has to get the school bus at 7.15 every morning. Lunch is half an hour, there isn’t enough time to queue for hot food. No access to clubs of any sort.

I wish they had a 10-4 school day. Lots of evidence that teens natural sleep cycles are later in the night and waking later in the morning, quite possible this would improve attainment. Teacher DH also reckons it could work - directed hours run from 8-4.30 anyway so he says he’d just do prep / marking etc in the morning instead of after school.

@etulosba

Break time used to be supervised by the prefects but I guess that isn’t a thing that happens anymore!

Same with me. They had quite a bit of power and could hand punishments like essays and after school detentions.

The school day was 8:45 to 4:45 with an hour for lunch and fifteen minute break in the morning.

I don’t know of any schools where normal lessons finished at quarter to 5. Whereabouts and when was this?

Wales is experimenting with a longer school day in one area, don't think lunch timings are to be altered.

I don't know whether boarding schools still do this, but back in the dark ages when I was at one, afternoon lessons in the autumn and spring terms started at 4.15 pm. They were slightly shorter lessons and were timetabled to go on till, I think, around 6.15, but that would also include time for doing prep (equivalent to homework). It was partly because they were dreadfully keen on games for which I suppose they needed the light, so we did afternoon games between around 2 and 3.30 for four days a week, with the fifth day being used for clubs, letter writing, hobbies etc. In the summer term it went the other way and afternoon lessons started at 2 with games being in the early evenings.

I suppose the teachers were OK with it - maybe they like the fact that, for two terms a year, it gave them a break between 1 and 4.15 when they could do marking, lesson prep etc.

I’m in Scotland and most primary schools finish at 3pm but eldest in secondary finishes at 3.45 mon and tues and then 2.45 wed-fri.

I do think the 2.45 finish is too early for secondary school.

I don’t know of any schools where normal lessons finished at quarter to 5. Whereabouts and when was this?

Fifty something years ago. North of Watford.

Somebody else posted that their children's school currently finishes at 4:45.

@Fretfulmum

It’s funny that if you read posts about private vs state schools, most of MN jump on to say a bright child will achieve the same whether they are in private or state. Judging by this thread, how on earth can a bright child get the same level of education as one who has a decent lunch break to unwind, attend clubs to encourage lateral thinking and improve their knowledge and have rested teachers teaching them through the afternoon?

Their teachers wouldn't be rested if they spent lunchtime running a club. There is no money for someone else to do it in state schools because per pupil budgets are so tight and there are so many additional needs. Private schools can because they set their own price points.

Even if it was just a longer lunch break, the teachers wouldn't spend it resting. Like now, they'd spend it working. Maybe working with kids who've struggled or need support. Maybe talking to other staff about incidents, or asking for or giving support, maybe cracking on with marking or prep so they don't have to do it after school and sacrifice family time.

Bloody hell, it’s no wonder kids play up if they’re constantly being told they’re ‘wild’ and ‘cause havoc’ and can’t be trusted to have a decent lunch break.

They started it!

My husband grew up in an EU country and school didn’t finish at 5, and there was still the option of an after school club too. He was shocked when he realised we’d need to find childcare from 3, considering there’s no jobs that finish at that time for parents to be available from