Protecting children from "life"

[TooManyAnimals94]

Another thread got me thinking about the aspects of life that we either expose or protect our children from.
Why, as a society, are we so keen to sanitise birth, death and sex? Is there an argument for exposing children to all three and making it a normal part of life.
For example, I think people who replace dead pets with lookalikes or tell children 'Lucky went to live on a farm ' are so in the wrong. Especially the second one...surely it raises more questions than it answers and offers no opportunity for closure.
Another one that springs to mind is a friend of mine who owns a stud and breeds dogs. All of his kids understand from a very young age what sex is and where babies come from.
I only became a parent recently but I like to think I will try and be as open and honest about the tough subjects when my DD is small in the hope she'll find it easier to talk to me as she grows up.
Am I very naive? Is there a good case for protecting children from unpleasant things?

• That is 'knowing about sex' in an age appropriate way.

I never understand why that is not OK, surely that is part of life?*

I meant graphic details as in penis in vagina, I don’t see why young children need to know about that? I just told my children the basics how babies are made as in the woman has an egg the dad puts a seed in mummies belly I don’t go into details about sex as I don’t see why young children need to know that! Each to their own though 🤷‍♀️

Btw I mean young children as in I don’t see why a 4 year old needs to know that a man puts his penis in a woman’s vagina I really can’t see why a 4 year old needs to know that, not talking about older children.

Yes DH and I had a good giggle about it too. Then I waffled on for a bit about the PM, and parliament, and judges and the system of checks and balances...

@RedCandyApple

Btw I mean young children as in I don’t see why a 4 year old needs to know that a man puts his penis in a woman’s vagina I really can’t see why a 4 year old needs to know that, not talking about older children.

I would have agreed with you. But my 4 year old DD at the time was not satisfied with the egg in mummies tummy explanation.

I’m another who grew up on a farm where life, death and (animal) sex was fairly workaday. So much so that when I was informed that an elderly family friend had died, I asked who had shot him (as that’s how animals were put down.)

But this squeamishness extends way beyond childhood. In my family, talking about wills, estate planning, end of life planning, preferences for death and funerals, organ donation, etc are seen as things that are sensible to discuss throughout life. My husband’s family is totally the opposite - talking about what happens around death is almost taboo. It took a while before my husband and I were able to have a sensible discussion about organ donation; he’s still a bit uncomfortable if I make a passing comment about a song or whatever that I think I’d really love at my funeral (whenever it may come; I’m in good health.)

My family are probably on one end of the extreme, we are very practical people. In a zombie apocalypse, you’d want us around to help restart society and you could probably rely on us to keep our heads. But you see again and again, including on here, the problems and heartache that can be caused down the line because we tend to treat these subjects as taboo.

Ditto miscarriage, stillbirths and the deaths of children - things we find really hard to contemplate for ourselves we want to avoid talking about.

But my 4 year old DD at the time was not satisfied with the egg in mummies tummy explanation.

‘BUT HOW DID THE SEED GET FROM THE DADDY TO THE MUMMY IS IT A FLYING SEED?’

Sometime the truth is better.

(Followed by: ‘and daddy did that to you twice?! [pause] When do you think the queen will die?’)

Ok mine never asked anymore after that thankfully!

@dottydodah

Childhood innocence surely? What is wrong with young children having a childhood first .My family were very protective .I was 31 before I even heard about porn ! Please let children be children!

I think the fact that you went straight to "porn", when nobody else was discussing it, says more about the effects of this perspective than anything else could.

Adults shielding other adults from aspects of adult life is neither beneficial nor desirable, unless you're actively trying to produce anxious, messed-up people.

@JassyRadlett I see you have met my DD

I went down the route of age appropriate but clear honesty.

Seems to have worked ok dd is now 21 and at uni and seems to be a sensible well adjusted sort generally speaking.

As a Csa survivor I taught her at an earlier age than I noticed most parents then did about bodily autonomy, and then sex and conception etc. that seems to be gradually changing thankfully. My mother wasn't impressed with that one but then she is not someone I consider in a position to comment!

We had pets and of course at a certain point they died. I did not shield her from that reality, we had little "funerals" and grieved their loss, when she later lost people close to her she coped better than she would have without that experience I think.

We've watched one born every minute and similar together (again at age appropriate times) and she also experienced becoming a cousin at a time when she was aware enough to ask about pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding etc and those questions were answered honestly and openly

She had one cousin who when my gran died was told gran had "gone to sleep" the parents then had to deal with the child being terrified to go to sleep! Stupid!

She also watched news programmes and current affairs shows and read newspapers when primary age - which I noticed other parents didn't allow - and we discussed current affairs.

What I noticed was the kids that weren't allowed to do such things and therefore didn't feel able to ask their parents questions then would worry about stuff that honest and open discussion would have allayed their fears.

I also come from a family full of addicts and other mental illness inc myself from dd was a young age so that was all discussed honestly

I remember her asking "why do people take drugs when they're so bad for you?" And I replied - because at least at first they make you feel nice and that makes people think they're not so bad.

She also asked about my parents smoking and we discussed legal drugs, abuse of prescription meds etc at various points.

She knew about my mental illness and how it affects me and why meds are necessary etc

I also have friends and family who have various disabilities physical and learning disabilities and I have a disability myself as does dd so we've discussed all that too.

I think DS can know that mummy bleeds monthly and it doesn't hurt her or anyone else from a very early age

I hope your not doing this! It's untrue! Many women and girls DO experience period pain, most in fact. Please don't lie about this. He needs to understand the difficulties women and girls deal with at this time.

I don’t see why young children need to know about sex tbh, I just don’t see why they need to know about that?

Children that aren't taught about this area - in age appropriate ways - are more at risk of abuse

They certainly need to be taught to love and respect their and others bodies and bodily autonomy, consent and protecting themselves.

It's best they learn about life, death, sex, etc. from me than from the wrong people or having no knowledge whatsoever.

Totally agree

When I was in last year of school there were 5 got pregnant, at this time parents could still withdraw their dc from having sex ed - all of these were kids where their parents had withdrawn them and their parents hadn't told them either. 2 were pregnant by much older men and it wasn't even treated like the abuse it was! The girls were blamed in every case by parents and the school! And this was a normal comp!

And yes once kids can read and talk to other kids with older brothers and sisters, they start learning a lot more anyway.

Exactly! And they hear a load of crap then!

I was once "told off" by a teacher (not dds actual teacher thankfully) for the fact that dd had corrected some playground gossip of the "you can't get pregnant if you do it standing up" variety. I was told my almost 11 year old shouldn't have known the CORRECT info - never mind another child was spreading misinformation told to her by her older brother!

I worry how they will ever have any resilience at all.

In my experience observing dds peers a lot of them don't!

They are mollycoddled throughout childhood in some cases right up until they leave school at 18 and then when they start applying for uni and jobs and are rejected or worse they're sacked or told off by someone other than a parent or teacher doing so very gently they can't cope!

Not all parents know what's best, not all parents act in ways that are best for their dc my abuser was my father, he was also very anti me knowing certain things about sex or relationships! My mum forced this. He barred me from dating until I was 16 (I dated secretly instead and probably chose not the best lads as I think I was more vulnerable to less savoury types as a result)

@showmethegin that's a lovely explanation of mc. I've had 2 myself which dd has known about from a fairly young age, first time it came up was because a friend of the family she was close to sadly had a late mc.

@dottydodah because not every child has an idyllic childhood, because part of parenting is preparing them to be resilient and determined and able to handle life.

Also how can you possibly protect your own children if you don't understand the dangers in life yourself?

Excellent point

@Wreath21 the whole religion thing very tricky in my family/extended family! I was raised catholic but am now lapsed (you're never an ex catholic just a bad one! ) but we have relatives who are Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, atheist and Sikh - so there's a lot of different rites of passage, practices and diets based on religion too. Big family (mum one of 6 dad one of 5 don't even get me started on the grandparents!)

We all attend as invited (sometimes weddings are small, but baby naming and death rituals tend to be whole family) so there's a lot of discussion of the different ways of marking them.

Even when we all get together for things like birthdays it tend to be a "pot luck" type deal (cos frankly nobody can afford to feed the whole clan!) but we as a family have developed over the years ways of labelling/identifying which foods are kosher etc on the buffet table and then me and a few cousins complicate matters with vegetarianism plus there's allergies...it's certainly interesting! 

At this point we try and stick to dishes that cover several requirements!

@JassyRadlett I had a similar experience with my ex, he was army and was encouraged by his bosses to be clear with me as his wife as to what he wanted to happen in the event of his death. It was like getting blood out of a stone! He wouldn't even make a will until after we had dd and he was due to go on deployment when she was 3 months old at which point I was getting very frustrated with him! He did make one but he hated the whole process.

I do remember my dd falling about laughing thinking I was winding her up when I told her (after her asking) exactly how the daddy's seed gets in mummy's belly she was 7/8 at the time. Then when she realised I wasn't kidding she went like "then I am NOT having babies! No way I'm doing THAT!"

I had "but is it like an apple seed and if it grows too big it'll turn into a tree and kill you?" That was thanks to my mum telling her not to eat apple cores!

My DS asked me how EXACTLY did the daddy's seed get into the mummy's tummy to make a baby while we were walking to school.

He was only 4 or 5 & I gave him a swift (we were on the way to school & I was on the way to work) but factual, age-appropriate resume of penis-in-vagina sex in loving, stable relationships (I'm aware not all conceptions start like this) & that was that

until a week later I was tucking him in & he announced he'd never get married "because I don't want to do that with my willy."

"Don't worry, it's just for grown-ups," I soothed

As it happens he's bringing a girlfriend to stay for the first time this weekend - they're both 23 & will be sharing a room

I don’t think most parents do the examples you’ve described so I don’t think it’s the norm but I do agree replacing pets etc isn’t a good idea

@dottydodah

Childhood innocence surely? What is wrong with young children having a childhood first .My family were very protective .I was 31 before I even heard about porn ! Please let children be children!

That's my whole point. These things happen when children ARE children. I'm not sure I believe in childhood innocence in the idyllic way it's portrayed. As someone else said, they hear all sorts, surely it's best the correct information comes from their parents.

I agree that many of the girls who got pregnant at school were the naive ones.

This came up for us recently when we were in the car and the radio was talking about that poor little boy Arthur.

Our 9yo was curious and asked a lot of questions. We explained that Arthur had died because his father hadn't cared for him properly. She wanted to know what the news reader was saying about "nobody loves me" and a duvet. In the end, we had to shut the conversation down with a firm "You are too young. It has made us feel upset and we are grown ups so we don't think you need to know about the details at your age".

We generally talk quite openly about sex, alcohol, cigarettes, law breakers etc. But there should be a line I think and that was ours. Not a line we'd ever decided upon but a line that became very apparent when it came up naturally in conversation.

We try to be as open as possible and encourage the children to use the correct words for things so that they can explain it to us if it happened to them (god forbid).

I was looking after my great nephew the day I heard my mum had died. (We were visiting them in America, so I was faraway from home). He was four and asking how we were actually related. Explained my mum and his grandfathers mum were sisters. He asked where my mum was and I took a deep breath, then said “well, she passed”. Ollie thought about this then said “aww, that’s sad. But it’s nice that they are together”.

Out of the mouths of babes.

@dottydodah

Childhood innocence surely? What is wrong with young children having a childhood first .My family were very protective .I was 31 before I even heard about porn ! Please let children be children!

And how is that healthy?!

I've always been honest with the dcs.
Hamster died. Sorry ds 'hamster' died. Because he was very old. But we can Bury him in the garden and if you'd like to put a plant there u can.

From a young age he'd ask about sex etc.
Once about age 6 he said a boy at school was going to rape him. I said what's that mean. He said slap me hard to leave a mark. I explained what rape was. He never asked again. He even told the teacher what I told him when he reported what the boy had said.

A family member passed away last year.
We go to the grave side.
My 3 year old knows the member 'is in the ground because she died' and we take her flowers.

I can't deal with sugar coating stuff. My parents were always honest too

In a way this thread proves the problem. I completely agree with you and don’t buy into this childhood innocence being so precious phenomenon. To me, knowing thee are awful things but being carefree enough not worry about them is childhood. Adulthood is the responsibility of either preventing or dealing with the awfulness while trying to enjoy yourself occasionally!

However, lots of posters saying must be in an age appropriate way, but that varies so much per child. Plus parents are informed by their own sensitivities and experiences. I don’t think many parents at all are trying to completely shield their children but the barometer of what is age appropriate varies wildly…

I agree with you. I don't see the point except setting them up for a horrible cold feeling of realisation as they age. It's a balance and you say ‘protecting children from unpleasant things’ that’s very vague and broad.

For me it's when things come up. Our neighbour died and my daughter knows he is dead. She hasn't asked what that means yet. She has asked where babies come from and that was easy because I know the answer. I told her about it in all its glory because it's part of nature.
That’s not to say I'd sit her down and start telling her the anatomy of or showing her pictures of a penis.

She also knows there are “bad” people out there and she knows there is a risk if she gets lost so I've told her what to do. She knows her address and who to go to and what to say.

If she didn't know this risk existed she would be totally naïve and that’s so much more dangerous when lost.

That’s not to say I'll sit her down and start relaying my in-depth knowledge of serial killers to her.

See what I mean? It's your own judgement. But I think it's puerile and a huge disservice to children to say ‘nanny’s in the sky’ without also ensuring they know they are “dead” in certain terms.

But I pretend the tooth fairy comes and I laugh when she says unicorns are extinct. I use my judgement. I go on who I want to raise. I don’t want to raise a naïve damsel. I want to raise an intelligent, aware young woman.

I've rarely had to bring anything up about where babies come from with DS as he has a lot of cousins - as do I and since of them have had children since DS was old enough to ask. I've never lied, though didn't go into the mechanics of it until he asked how the sperm got to the egg, he was 7 at the time iirc.

Learning about death didn't go so well. We lost a pet and though it wasn't the first death he knew of it was the first where he grasped more of what it meant. It was very difficult for all of us, but we never tried to stop him talking about it and never refused to answer questions and he's coped better with bereavements since.

@RedCandyApple

* That is 'knowing about sex' in an age appropriate way.

I never understand why that is not OK, surely that is part of life?*

I meant graphic details as in penis in vagina, I don’t see why young children need to know about that? I just told my children the basics how babies are made as in the woman has an egg the dad puts a seed in mummies belly I don’t go into details about sex as I don’t see why young children need to know that! Each to their own though 🤷‍♀️

I did the same as you. DD had no more interest beyond that and in fact refused to acknowledge OH's part in her conception.

However some children will keep asking questions, they'll want to know how etc and then the alternatives are lie ,shut them down or explain a bit more in an age appropriate way including PIV. It is what it is and the first two options aren't very healthy or safe.

@JassyRadlett

But my 4 year old DD at the time was not satisfied with the egg in mummies tummy explanation.

‘BUT HOW DID THE SEED GET FROM THE DADDY TO THE MUMMY IS IT A FLYING SEED?’

Sometime the truth is better.

(Followed by: ‘and daddy did that to you twice?! [pause] When do you think the queen will die?’)

I told her women have a womb and that’s where an egg implants and grows into a baby. She asked what ‘implant’ meant and I explained that, then we spelled that, then we did some spelling then she went to bed.

I try to talk to DD in a sensitive, informed way.

I realised this might have backfired when, aged three, she came into the living room to inform me the pigeons were fucking again. (Yes, she did know it meant having sex).

@AllThePogs

I find the idea that kids shouldn't know about things until they can fully comprehend them, a strange one. I don't think children really comprehend death fully, even older children, but they should still learn about it. And pets are an easy way to learn. And yes once kids can read and talk to other kids with older brothers and sisters, they start learning a lot more anyway.

My (then) 5 year old cried his eyes out as he asked me if people who died came back to life. He was desperate to hear my answer, clawing at my arm and crying. Of course I told him they do.

I just avoid the topic now. I don't think distressing him would have been the better option.