AMA Fashion and anthropology. Everything happens for a reason…

[ArseInTheCoOpWindow]

I’ve been asked to start a thread in this.

I wrote a 50,000 word document in this and lectured in it for years. Fashion doesn’t just ‘happen’

It is essentially a social history particularly as regards women. This is mainly from the 1800’s. There is a reason for all those lovely Jane Austen type dresses.

So fire away, or l can drop little gems in here and there.

I think wearing kilts in Scotland and not being ridiculed is due to a less formal society and acceptance of home sexuality,

@ColdNovemberRain

This is a fascinating thread - thank you.

I'm Scottish (central lowlands) and have often wondered about the fact that as a child in the late 70's and 80's, kilts/full highland dress on men was ridiculed. It certainly wasn't seen very often and if we ever did see a man wearing a kilt we'd point and laugh. Wedding photos from those days show men in suits rather than kilts.

At some point in the 90s, kilts became really cool and have stayed that way. Kilt outfits seem to be a standard 18/21st birthday present for men and grooms/male wedding parties wear them without hesitation. Most men also have half-weight kilts to wear to football/rugby games or for some nights out.

I have a few theories on this and wonder if you have any further insights. One is that this is to do with the rise of the SNP in the 90s, or possibly the rise of rugby as a professional sport. I also recall a brief time in the early 90s where tartan miniskirts were very popular for women and girls and wonder if we led the way with men following?

Or, on a completely different train of thought, it could be that there never was a kilt backlash/embarrassment and that this is to do with social mobility. I grew up in a very working class area with a WC family but once I was at uni in the mid-90s was mixing with different people and now move in MC circles on a social/professional level. Were kilts always standard for the middle class and above? Are they still ridiculed by the working class? I know my dad was horrified and embarrassed by the thought of wearing one at my wedding (we compromised on tartan trews) and had been asked and refused multiple times for other family weddings in the last 15-20 years. I thought this was an age thing but maybe it is class-based?

I've been thinking about this off and on over the years and it's good to have this thread to share my idle musings.

I think this was part of a backlash against the perceived wisdom that Scots should be ashamed of their accents/clothes etc. I remember hearing a nurse admonish her daughter in approx 1999/2000 for speaking in broad Doric. She told her to try to sound more English. If you read Sunset Song you can see the same mentality in the 1910s/20s. My granny in the 1950s was sent to elocution lessons.

I think Scottish devolution had a lot to do with kilts as well! Not sure about the class thing but it’s interesting.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

I think wearing kilts in Scotland and not being ridiculed is due to a less formal society and acceptance of home sexuality,

Bollocks. Kilts have nothing to do with homosexuality. They are worn as very formal attire or by blokey blokes at the football/rugby.

You mentioned corsets as coming in and out of fashion, does this correlate in the current generation with trans/binders?
What's the anthropological take on deliberately wearing clothes that are restrictive and uncomfortable? To which you could add many items - high heeled shoes, many bras, 'smart' clothes. Indeed, why are so many items of clothing which are considered smart so uncomfortable?

Corsets come in and out of fashion, but for adornment, not as proper underwear. Anything that is restrictive related to females not having full freedom. I would put high heels in the category of this, corsets, but not bras. Bras are needed for some people

As a foreigner in the UK, I am fascinated by fascinators!:) I can understand the logic of hats in a cold, windy country, but how did fascinators arrive on the scene?

What is your take on long flowery, floaty dresses and chunky trainers ?

From my experiences in reenactment I would say that absorbing yourself (as far as possible) in the way people lived historically goes a long way to explaining their clothing. For instance hair covering was often fuller among the lower classes who risked getting their hair burnt over fires, dirty, smelly etc. Wealthier women who didn't work and had better access to bathing facilities seem to have had more exposed hair. Detachable sleeves prolonged the life of a dress. Gowns on boys until toilet trained is another one. Makes sense when you think that clothing was often fussy, expensive and difficult to wash (relatively). The point being that any time or culture, including our own now, dresses and styles to suit its lifestyle and analysing that can be quite revealing. I wonder what people will say about caterpillar eyebrows in 200 years time?

They used to have mouse eyebrows in the 18th century🤮

I know nothing at all about fascinators. The only thing l can say is, as society has become less formal it is perhaps not as necessary to wear a hat to a wedding. But it’s still kind of semi formal, so a fascinstor is sort of a cross between a hat and nothing.

Do you mean trainers and dresses together? Long dresses appear when the economy is down. I think again it’s about the casualisation of society. A flowered dress would traditionally have been worn with formal shoes. But we are beyond all that now.

The chunky trainer/shoe is quite interesting. They appeared in the 40’s (cork wedges) the 70’s androgyny and feminism, the 90’s and now.

It is down l think to the increasing freedom of women. In WW2 women were doing what were traditional male roles hence the wedge then. A high shoe raises them up to make height and therefore makes them equal to men. However not all high shoes are created equally. Heels are very different to chunky brogues or trainers. I think they are competing against men, whilst trainers/chunky brogues are equalising, although they both relate to womens’ increasing social economic roles.

I’m not referring to those hideous stripper platforms here🤮

What are the biggest fashion drivers just now? Is it Instagram influencers?

Hi OP. I’m interested in the idea that men grow facial hair when they feel threatened! Would you also apply this to men in Middle Eastern countries where there is more of a preponderance of beards anyway? Of are you talking about mainly about the trends in Western societies ?

I am talking about the West. However, looking at the Taliban etc whilst they maybe doing it for religious reasons, it’s also showing dominance over women. l suppose the West is a pale imitation of that. Trying to show dominance.

I’m not sure of biggest trends now, influencers are a big push as are WAGs. A xx ot if styling comes up from the street too.

Interesting ArseInTheCoOpWindow. So you could say that a society where men have bushy beards and women are completely covered up represents the ultimate in male insecurity?

My husband is Iranian with a (trimmed) beard, so this is why I ask.

Yes possibly. It’s not about individuals, it’s about a general trend. And also the trend that is hopefully passing of massive beards is more indicative than a neatly trimmed beard!

Yes I meant trainers and dresses together .Also thin ,short dresses to go clubbing with trainers.

I don’t know

It’s more about general large trends, and often can’t be seen at the time.

Is some of it just about what is cheap to mass manufacture?

Immense thread op
Thanks!

Printing techniques mean more floral which is visually appealing. No need for expensive dresses- there is viscose. Leggings are cheaper than jeans.

Why does the present-day fashion industry discriminate so much against hourglass-shaped women, and mainly only make clothes for straight-up-and-down shapes? I end up buying most of my clothes from vintage-style shops (mainly Collectif) because the chest, waist and hips actually fit me properly.

Also, how did it come about that so many goth/punk/alternative brands ended up being 50s/vintage brands? Like if you look at Collectif, Hell Bunny, Banned etc, they all started off as goth/punk labels about twenty years ago but are now known as vintage-style. Why did this happen, and what is the connection between the two?

Another question: why is the wedding dress/bridesmaid dress industry so much more body-shaming and sneery than high street fashion? I got married a few years ago and honestly, some of the things that were said to me at wedding dress shops and wedding shows, for some reason that's acceptable behaviour but if anyone at H&M had said something like that they probably would've got the sack for being rude to customers. Why has the wedding dress industry not taken part in vanity sizing like the rest of the high street, and why are wedding dress shop staff so damn nasty? Literally telling you, you look fat in that etc.

Ooh I love social history! Can't think of any questions to ask you but will place marking to read.

Is some of it just about what is cheap to mass manufacture
Not reallyanything can be manufactured cheaply.

*Why does the present-day fashion industry discriminate so much against hourglass-shaped women, and mainly only make clothes for straight-up-and-down shapes? I end up buying most of my clothes from vintage-style shops (mainly Collectif) because the chest, waist and hips actually fit me properly.

Also, how did it come about that so many goth/punk/alternative brands ended up being 50s/vintage brands? Like if you look at Collectif, Hell Bunny, Banned etc, they all started off as goth/punk labels about twenty years ago but are now known as vintage-style. Why did this happen, and what is the connection between the two?*

The hourglass shape hasn’t really been fashionable since the 50’s. The fashion industry is only interested in making money. The ‘ideal’ in the clothing industry is tall and slim, that’s what they cater for. And the other big reason is anthropometrics. They aim for main area of measurement. So a certain size has to fit the entirety of that size. Bigger waists allow for this to happen more. It would be too niche making purely for hourglasses and probably too expensive. The vintage clothes you buy that fit may have been worn with girdles to suck the flesh in.

I think the punk/goth brands kind of grew up with their consumers. They still wanted ‘alternative’ but more wearable. A lot of the early Goth stuff had bits of rockabilly (Pyschobilly) and l think that has carried on evolving as it is more wearable than a fish net vest, rubber skirt and a million studded belts.

I don’t know very much about wedding dresses. My thing is street style. I think you met some very rude shop owners. But a lot of brides lose weight for their weddings? If they are like that, it’s appalling. But they will have to stop eventually, people are generally getting bigger and heavier.

Why did the bustle come into fashion? It seems as it was the butt enhancer of the time.

Is it true it had something to do with the Venus Hottentot, Sartjie Baartman being put on display?

It was definitely the butt enhancer of the time! Again, any exaggeration of the female form is to do with the woman being in the ‘traditional submissive’ role.

Some of the reason for it was it was difficult to cope with hoops. But yes, it was a lot to do with mens fascinations for big butts.