AMA Fashion and anthropology. Everything happens for a reason…

[ArseInTheCoOpWindow]

I’ve been asked to start a thread in this.

I wrote a 50,000 word document in this and lectured in it for years. Fashion doesn’t just ‘happen’

It is essentially a social history particularly as regards women. This is mainly from the 1800’s. There is a reason for all those lovely Jane Austen type dresses.

So fire away, or l can drop little gems in here and there.

Because that would imply we’re about to enter a new cycle with a totally different look becoming prevalent

Low rise of the early noughties is back

When I was young, buying secondhand clothes was looked down on and mocked as something only the desperately poor did. But over past few years I have noticed more and more young people in charity shops and more and more often over-priced “vintage” clothes shops opening up and actually doing a roaring trade despite many high street shops going out of business.

My children say the second clothes stigma doesn’t really exist anymore and that many in their generation do consciously not buy new clothes as it is more environmentally conscious and buying new is considered to be conspicuous and wasteful consumerism that contributes to climate change.

So this is a kind of fashion trend driven by eco-consciousness.

I’m always interesting in why women wear so few layers compared to men, when did that start and why? You see this on Tv a man will have shirt, jumper, suit jacket then big coat. So 4 layers, a women have blouse and maybe tiny non coat jacket.

So much fashion now also exposing stomach it’s winter! Or big sleeping bag coats stop at elbows or jeans stop 6inch before tops or boots. Are we just so conditioned from young age to wear less clothes thinner fabrics (see boys joggers or girls) that we genuine don’t get as cold?

I need a picture of these yoga pants!

Buying of second clothes is linked to increasing awareness of ecology, the planet and sweatshop conditions. It’s also linked to the buy less movements. Older clothes are better made and last longer. This is also a rejection of the Primark culture.

@MmeD

Has the pandemic had an effect on fashion? I’ve heard various views on the trend for loose clothing - and you’ve just explained that it’s to do with increasing freedom and the trans movement - but is it also that a year of WFH and eating biscuits has given rise to a need for more forgiving clothes?

I'm definitely on the biscuit bandwagon. All of my work from home clothes are comfy! You mentioned corsets as coming in and out of fashion, does this correlate in the current generation with trans/binders? What's the anthropological take on deliberately wearing clothes that are restrictive and uncomfortable? To which you could add many items - high heeled shoes, many bras, 'smart' clothes. Indeed, why are so many items of clothing which are considered smart so uncomfortable?

I had several skirts in the 1980's which were both long, clingy and had a sort of shirred stitching along the bum - absolutely could not wear them now as my 50 year old butt is not quite the same as my 18 year old one! Very bodycon and although I am nowhere near the Kim Kardashian look and never have been, it's something I could see her wearing. So, I guess that's a trend that has taken 30 years to come back round. Although I tended to wear my long skirts with boxy tops.

I think thinner/shorter garments are linked to the fact most people have central heating! They aren’t really outside long enough to get cold!

I’ve not really noticed that thing about layers, big l guess it’s to do with men dressing for practicality and women dressing for aesthetics, certainly on TV.

Crop jeans have been around for a bit. Not sure about them. I’ve noticed ankle socks and big boots have become increasingly important as this shows them off.

I’m wondering if it’s to differentiate beteeen men and women as transgender etc is happening.

I don’t k ow why there are short sleeves on coats. It’s stupid. Probably because it’s cheaper!

I wonder if you lectured me?! I studied fashion, art (well, all media) and the representation of wider cultural influences. Loved it!

These are the yoga pants I mean. Favoured by many young women in my city - I usually see them on runner / gym goers:

www.amazon.co.uk/s?hvlocphy=1007416&hvnetw=g&hvadid=259147811003&k=scrunch+bum+leggings&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl_rz8Zus9QIVCe3tCh1V4gn5EAAYAiAAEgJ8tvD_BwE&ref=pd_sl_43sn7ye86i_e&hydadcr=16882_1798501&hvdev=m&hvqmt=e&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=kwd-327755743594&adgrpid=52009093326&hvrand=16403479305843656603

Yeah, it’s probably come round again. It’s not akways strictly to time.

However body con and Kardashian is quite interesting. There’s nothing left to do new in fashion, so people are modifying their bodies.

Again as equality and transgender grows we see extremes in fashion. So it’s either baggy and asexual or clingy and emphatically female and sexual. The male reaction to this is to grow more facial hair.

Do you think that - twenty year nostalgia trend aside - we are ever likely to go back to recognisable three season trends like we had pre social media? Or do you think it's forever splintered?

Do you think this will actually make 'fashionable' harder to achieve, as it becomes less about what's in trend and more about what is stylish?

How does fashion incorporate the massive rise of obesity?

Up to the 1980s and the early 90s, my generation and previous were on the whole, slim/trim.

Now there are fat people everywhere and has this made it difficult for designers who obviously want to make their designs as aesthetically pleasing as possible yet the consumer has an ‘undesirable’ figure to clothe?

Would that not be more why saggy, baggy clothing is popular?

@Ihatestripysocks

I’m always interesting in why women wear so few layers compared to men, when did that start and why? You see this on Tv a man will have shirt, jumper, suit jacket then big coat. So 4 layers, a women have blouse and maybe tiny non coat jacket.

So much fashion now also exposing stomach it’s winter! Or big sleeping bag coats stop at elbows or jeans stop 6inch before tops or boots. Are we just so conditioned from young age to wear less clothes thinner fabrics (see boys joggers or girls) that we genuine don’t get as cold?

Short sleeve coats etc are an attempt to sell more clothes. If you have a look at a lot of styling atm - coats are layered up. To achieve it you're spending twice as much.

This is a fascinating thread - thank you.

I'm Scottish (central lowlands) and have often wondered about the fact that as a child in the late 70's and 80's, kilts/full highland dress on men was ridiculed. It certainly wasn't seen very often and if we ever did see a man wearing a kilt we'd point and laugh. Wedding photos from those days show men in suits rather than kilts.

At some point in the 90s, kilts became really cool and have stayed that way. Kilt outfits seem to be a standard 18/21st birthday present for men and grooms/male wedding parties wear them without hesitation. Most men also have half-weight kilts to wear to football/rugby games or for some nights out.

I have a few theories on this and wonder if you have any further insights. One is that this is to do with the rise of the SNP in the 90s, or possibly the rise of rugby as a professional sport. I also recall a brief time in the early 90s where tartan miniskirts were very popular for women and girls and wonder if we led the way with men following?

Or, on a completely different train of thought, it could be that there never was a kilt backlash/embarrassment and that this is to do with social mobility. I grew up in a very working class area with a WC family but once I was at uni in the mid-90s was mixing with different people and now move in MC circles on a social/professional level. Were kilts always standard for the middle class and above? Are they still ridiculed by the working class? I know my dad was horrified and embarrassed by the thought of wearing one at my wedding (we compromised on tartan trews) and had been asked and refused multiple times for other family weddings in the last 15-20 years. I thought this was an age thing but maybe it is class-based?

I've been thinking about this off and on over the years and it's good to have this thread to share my idle musings.

Following from the middle class/ugly clothes thread. Very interesting! I did sociology at university and social trends are fascinating.

I also wore those "tube skirts" in the 80s, I'm pretty sure I wore untucked shirts over (though that might have been because I was wearing them instead of my school uniform ) rather than bum revealing.

BabyOctopus part of the Kardashian’s thing. A woman now has to look sexy when exercising.

Seasonal trends are finished apart from at Couture level. It’s not just about social media, it’s about the fact that as manufacturing methods have speeded up, items can be turned round ready for sale in 2-3 weeks. This is what’s driving the vintage shopping. People are sick of throwaway fashion and concerned for the planet. I think some retailers may move to higher quality items but selling fewer.

Saggy baggy clothing is not really due to obesity. It’s due to the relaxed trend of sportswear and is here to stay. Obesity and Size 0 are opposite end of the same thing. I think the future will actually be more body positive stuff. Unless they find a weight loss pill. But if they do, everyone will look alike and obesity could well resurface as nothing stays the same.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Yeah, it’s probably come round again. It’s not akways strictly to time.

However body con and Kardashian is quite interesting. There’s nothing left to do new in fashion, so people are modifying their bodies.

Again as equality and transgender grows we see extremes in fashion. So it’s either baggy and asexual or clingy and emphatically female and sexual. The male reaction to this is to grow more facial hair.

Now that’s interesting - hadn’t thought about the rise of beards as a signal of masculinity.

Do you look at hairstyles too? Wondering about the reasons for the move in women’s longer hair styles from the side sweep of the early 2000s to today’s centre partings.

Lastly, how do you reckon the concept of cultural appropriation will affect fashion in the future?

Really fascinating topic; thank you.

Great thread! Can you tell us something about wedding fashions OP? I find it fascinating that the idea of the 'wedding' dress and specifically the big white 'virginal' look is an invention of the Victorians and prior to that women (even wealthy ones) would just have had a new/'best' dress but it would have been in any colour and continued to be worn in normal social situations after the wedding - period dramas and films that do this correctly in costume terms just look so odd to the modern eye, so wedded are we to the 'wedding dress' idea. Do you think we'll ever go back to the idea of having any other colour than white for weddings (my Sri Lankan/tamil friend tells me their tradition is you choose your own wedding colours for the bride's sari (not necessarily red as it traditionally is in India), and you then wear your wedding sari when you attend other people's weddings as a mark of respect, sounds lovely to me but can't see it catching on over here anytime soon , can you imagine a church full of brides ?

What about men's fashions in wedding dress, any predictions for whether there'll be new fashions for suits or similar as men's wedding gear? They do get a bit short-changed in terms of choice/self expression as 99% wear a standard suit or perhaps morning dress, usually hired not bought? Yes they get to choose their waistcoat/tie/socks I guess but seems a bit boring compared to the variations for women?

Fascinating thread!!! Thanks op.

What's happening to the high street do you think? Are bricks and mortar stores going? I walked past the empty top shop this week and felt a bit sad. It was such a beacon and now it's all gone. Expect river island is next....is it because it wasn't the sweat shop rock bottom prices of boohoo and plt?

Otherwise Jack wills and joules seem to be booming?

@BabyOctopus

These are the yoga pants I mean. Favoured by many young women in my city - I usually see them on runner / gym goers:

]]

Jesus Christ. I feel like I have a wedgie just looking at those.

wear your wedding sari when you attend other people's weddings as a mark of respect,

I love this idea and think the very forgiving sari shape is ideal to wear over decades.

What do you think is the reason for the enduring popularity of a 1940s/50s retro aesthetic? I know it's not mainstream but there are loads of shops that specialise in it and many dedicated followers...it's almost a subculture among a lot of people and can include things like burlesque dancing.

Weddings are based on tradition so it will longer, it may evolve, but lm not sure what into. I think people will increasingly choose what they want to wear. Wedding dresses are expensive and big weddings are less likely in hard times. I can’t see much changing for men at weddings. I think people can choose what they want to wear anyway? The ‘statement’ dress may go due to cost and economy issues.

I think the high street is dying. There will be less shops. Some brands that are prepared to change with the times may hold on. I think there will be lots of small independent shops if they can afford the business rates.

I’m not sure why River Island held on, l think their demographic was slightly different to Top Shop. I’m not sure they will hold on. Joules will probably keep going and Jack Wills. A lot if Jack Wills stuff looks unisex.

Men grow facial hair when they feel threatened,

I’m not sure about hair styles. We have the Picie at the moment which is androgynous and kind of fits. Todays centre parting has come from the 90,s and the 70’s. I’d say hair length and volume are more important that partings.

Cultural appropriation will be interesting, so many thing are influenced by other cultures. There may be a backlash l don’t know though.

What effects will the dying high street have on fashion, do you think?

It's certainly nice not having to force myself into the limited selection of bricks and mortar stores within reach and generally looking awful as a result.

I think it will become more polarised. Expensive brands can afford to stay as can cheap ones. (Primark)

I have a gut feeling that Primark’s days are becoming limited, not yet but in the future. Throwaway fashion will become to be regarded as harmful to the environment.