9 year old dislikes school and cba with learning

[puppystress]

My ds goes to school with shoulders slumped every morning and it's actually starting to get me down, I have run out of ways to try to encourage him or talk to him about it.

He has plenty of friends, no bullying issues. Doesn't struggle with the work he's given and is either average or above average jn all subjects. He just thinks the work set is a waste of time and boring. He just doesn't see the point in learning.

He describes his teachers as "hypocritical" (they don't answer his questions but when he doesn't answer their questions he gets "told off ") he definitely is sensitive to being "told off"...often getting teary at what he perceives to be a telling off when actually it isn't at all. If that makes sense.

Teachers have described him a kind, considerate and popular member of the class. They have said he surprises them consistently because he gives the impression he isn't listening but then goes on to prove (either through questioning or through the actual work he does) that he was in fact listening and taking it all in. They have no concerns regarding his learning or his social skills.

I'm kind of rambling now, guess I'm just venting, in the hope someone comes along and tells me something magical to do or say to change ds' view of school. I loved school and learning so I can't really relate and never quite know what to say. I want to connect with him about this and ultimately I'd love to see him going off to school happy.

Any suggestions?

I’m not hating on your DS, my DS sounds similar - a very active learner, very smart and gets frustrated in school because learning is so structured. The right teacher will be able to engage that part of him and luckily most of his teachers do manage to spark interest in him. He had an awful year with one very didactic teacher who viewed his curiosity as bad behaviour - we had lots of sad faces and sloped shoulders that year. A few things helped:-

• making sure he had lots of active learning opportunities outside of school eg robot building class, coding club etc
• a tutor to spend 1:1 time stretching his learning and building his confidence again (he was utterly disheartened in school)
• fostering good friendships in school so there was always something positive about the day
• helping him understand social rules in school, so he understood that he needed to follow the rules and behave respectfully even if he thought the teacher was wrong
• regular conversations with the teacher to see how he was doing and to explore any undesirable treatment on her part (which there was a fair amount)
• discussion with the HT when the class teacher was very clearly picking on him
• ultimately lockdown mean he left her class early which was a mercy
• down time after school so he could settle after a rubbish day

It was a challenging year and thankfully not repeated so far. I’d not rely on the school to stretch him - look for things that will really engage him at home and away from school.

OP

I'm familiar with other countries' education systems where there is more streaming, especially say for maths.
There's also these education competitions, called "Olympiads" - that go up and up from school, town, county level and even country and international.
I understand the UK has something similar though less known about.
It maybe for older ages, but tell your kid about it and that he can prep for it in advance. Get maths books for him. As another poster suggests.
As an aside I'd done 6th form maths in my 4th form and it didn't kill me :) when I was in the British Isles in the 6th form and had to sit through it again.

@Jellycatspyjamas

I’m not hating on your DS, my DS sounds similar - a very active learner, very smart and gets frustrated in school because learning is so structured. The right teacher will be able to engage that part of him and luckily most of his teachers do manage to spark interest in him. He had an awful year with one very didactic teacher who viewed his curiosity as bad behaviour - we had lots of sad faces and sloped shoulders that year. A few things helped:-

• making sure he had lots of active learning opportunities outside of school eg robot building class, coding club etc
• a tutor to spend 1:1 time stretching his learning and building his confidence again (he was utterly disheartened in school)
• fostering good friendships in school so there was always something positive about the day
• helping him understand social rules in school, so he understood that he needed to follow the rules and behave respectfully even if he thought the teacher was wrong
• regular conversations with the teacher to see how he was doing and to explore any undesirable treatment on her part (which there was a fair amount)
• discussion with the HT when the class teacher was very clearly picking on him
• ultimately lockdown mean he left her class early which was a mercy
• down time after school so he could settle after a rubbish day

It was a challenging year and thankfully not repeated so far. I’d not rely on the school to stretch him - look for things that will really engage him at home and away from school.

This is incredibly helpful, just the sort of reply I was looking for. Some great practical ideas. Thank you x

I could have written something similar about DD, she started to complain about having to go to school from the beginning of year 1 but thankfully always went.
It was different in that her teachers recognised she was clever but always added she wasn't bothered.
I once mentioned it to her year 4 teacher who brushed it off and made out I was lying.
I was really worried about her starting secondary school but she totally thrived and worked hard, she was in the top set for everything and had some amazing teachers that were 'strict but fun' I think she needed the structure and being around other kids that pushed her.
I don't know if any of that is helpful as I didn't do anything, but just wanted to give you a positive experience.

How about having a future-planning chat with him?
Explain what school is for. The actual facts learned don't matter as much as the training of the brain to remember things which will help when he is employed. Of course, the facts can be pretty useful, tell him everyone will want to be on his team in the pub quiz if he's got good general knowledge.
Then can you talk about careers, and how moving towards an enjoyable occupation does actually start now. Not messing about, learning as much as possible will stand him in good stead for secondary. Is there a good private school he could try for? (scholarship or assisted place would be a good goal for him)
But at the very least, get him thinking about what sort of job he would like as an adult, find out what he needs for uni/training to do this, then encourage him in related activities.
He sounds very bright, so you might want to make him look further ahead than your average 9yo would do.

The other thing I would add is watch for how he’s experiencing school. My little one really struggled because behaviour that was acceptable with his P1 teacher was punished by his P2 teacher - he had no idea what he was doing wrong or why he kept getting into trouble because his teacher didn’t explain her rules. He got so disheartened but didn’t want to tell me what was going on because he thought he was doing something wrong (while not knowing what the “wrong” thing was. The teacher basically used him as an example to keep the other kids in line.

Check in with him about how his school day is going, what’s gone well, what’s gone less well and see if there’s anything. In the end one of my DSs friends told his mum the teacher had really screamed at my DS in class, which was the first inkling I had that things weren’t ok with the teacher - lots came to light after that. New year, new teacher and my DS is happy going into school again.

I’m sorry if my reply came across as me calling your son names - it wasn’t intended in that way, but to point out that, while his answer was technically correct, it wasn’t the required answer.

As others have said, schools are under enormous pressure to get a heavy facts based curriculum across, whilst sorting out gaps in learning from covid isolation. In a large-ish class of 30 there isn’t the time (especially in upper KS2) to expand on each child’s whims and ‘technically right but not what I was asking’ answers. If each diversion lasts 5 minutes and there’s a class of 30, the input would never be done!

I have a very bright Dd in upper KS2 and we have had discussions in the past about not giving overly complex answers to questions - triggered by a ‘stated of matter’ lesson last year where she got told off for being a smart Alec for including plasma as a state. It’s a social skill to know how to give the correct information in the right way to a question, and smart kids need to learn this and not to simply information dump.

To help him, as others have said, stretch him in other areas outside of school.

It’s also worth speaking to him about the fact that sometimes learning just has to be done, that it can be boring and repetitive at times but those repetitive times are for the kids that haven’t understood as quickly as he has. One day in the future he won’t find things as easy and it’s a good skill to learn to be patient with himself and others.

OP - do you know how 'good' the school actually is? It is possible that it jist isn't that amazing. While I will defend teachers and the complexity of their job till the cows come home, some schools are just a bit uninspiring. If your DS has an active learning style and the school likes to rely almost entirely on worksheets - that's just not going to cut it for him.

In terms of making the mornings feel easier - just chatting about what you're going to do after school might be enough. Or chatting about who he's looking forward to playing with at break, what he's having for lunch etc. Little things that will remind him that school is more than just the class time. I sometimes ask DS questions after school like "what was the funniest thing that happened today" and then the next morning say "I wonder if X will do a really loud fart again today" (or something less gross) - again to remind him he does have fun when he's there!

Can you afford private schooling? I think children like this thrive in private schools where class sizes are small enough that teachers have time to have interesting discussions with the children. They also have more freedom to go off topic. When you have 30 pupils and a tight schedule to get through a set curriculum then you just don’t have the time for interesting conversations.

That's the sort of answer my son would have given. We talked about not just answering what they thought the answer could be but the answer the teacher wants you to give - so the first bit should always be the most simplistic answer, followed up by expanding sentences if the situation (or number of marks if written) was appropriate.

It gets better in secondary! Although he's been told to wait 5 years for an answer at A'Level to some questions! Most of the teachers seem to like some level of interaction from the kids, and he gets good reports.

Id work on "expected answers" and then stretch him out of school - music, coding - stuff not directly in the curriculum as otherwise they just get further frustrated when it gets covered in class.

Sorry, that's the bit he does need to develop

I agree, and you are giving me memories of having been that child.

Think about him at Secondary doing an exam or his homework and the question is asked 'Where do polar bears live?(1 point)'

Yes his answer of a desert might be technically correct, or he could write a paragraph where he eventually mentioned the Arctic but he has missed the point of the question and wasted a lot of time.

He needs to focus on what the teacher is actually asking and answer it. Later on this becomes exam skills in reading the question - How many times are we told 'Read the Question' in exam technique. It's also useful in social skills when people around you aren't interested in your information dumping of amazing facts and just wanted a quick answer to a quick question.

If he had said 'The Arctic' the teacher would have said 'Well done' and he would have been delighted.

What probably hasn't occurred to him, given his specialist knowledge of the Arctic, is that there are other kids in his class who don't know where polar bears come from at all, let alone that the Arctic is a desert. His teacher needs to teach them too, not just have interesting chats with him.

@3WildOnes

I went to private school! The teachers may have a bit more tolerance but at some point, they have to teach the lesson.

My DM had a lot of chats about this until it sunk in.

@AnnaMagnani I went to both and definitely found that my teachers at my private school would have really welcomed a discussion like this. I guess it depends on the school though.

Story just changed!

Apparently the teacher asked the class if Polar Bears could live in the desert. He answered yes. To which she replied that's ridiculous and explained they live on the Arctic. He was frustrated she didn't give him a chance to explain.

Not sure if that makes it better or worse 🤔 🤣 or makes not a blind bit of difference.

We are about to read now and once I've left him to go sleep I'll read all your latest responses but just thought I'd update with the change of story...kids eh.

I don’t think it’s really about ‘modern’ teaching. I mean, I accept that there is a packed curriculum, but the idea that my 80s teachers would have costly chatted about cold deserts and then gone on a tangent and allowed us to explore our interests about hot and cold deserts is a bit - more likely to have had a textbook slapped in front of us and told to get on with it!

Well the teacher is right isn't she! Polar bears can't live in 'the desert' even a cold one as they live by hunting seals. They spend most of their time on sea ice, not the land mass.

You could try and get him to work through his argument to see that he is wrong and doesn't know as much about polar bears (or his new fascination with cold deserts) as he thinks he does.

The teacher may not realise the Arctic is a desert. Teachers can't be expected to know absolutely everything. Her response was probably based on her thinking your ds had deliberately given a silly answer. I can see why he would be frustrated that he didn't get chance to explain his point too. As PPs have said, part of being smart is knowing when to give a technically correct answer, and when to give a correct and obvious answer.

Does he get the opportunity to talk to the teacher at break or lunch? In Secondary this is when I tell students to come and speak to me if they have a concern about anything.

He sounds like a very inquisitive student and willing to learn if it is truly new knowledge to him.

What probably hasn't occurred to him, given his specialist knowledge of the Arctic, is that there are other kids in his class who don't know where polar bears come from at all, let alone that the Arctic is a desert. His teacher needs to teach them too, not just have interesting chats with him.

It's a fair point but I imagine this is exactly why he's finding school boring. My son is the same.

Is home education an option?

The difficulty is there are 30 children and they just don't have the time, and by sounds of it energy to talk to them about things. Not always the teachers fault- it just isn't possible. Although I suspect this is one of the ones who got into teaching as back up, certainly doesn't sound like they're enjoying it and doing the minimum.

Definitely push harder work and state whilst she obviously didn't realise it was a desert, calling an answer ridiculous is unnecessary.

Part of being smart is knowing when to give a technically correct answer, and when to give a correct and obvious answer

Have just been discussing this thread with my DH and he has given an example of having to give the answer that was wanted, not the better answer that still annoys him from his German GCSE 30 years ago.

Giving the wanted answer is rewarding too - it sounds like he does want affirmation from the teacher, and if school is boring he can explore his interests more outside it.

His teacher is much more likely to notice how bright he is, if he learns this skill and is on her radar as 'the kid that gets all the answers right'.

Not really the point, but polar bears don’t live in a desert. They only live in the Arctic which isn’t a desert because it has quite a bit of rainfall (which falls as snow). The Antarctic is a desert but polar bears don’t live there.

In a busy classroom, it’s a bit much to expect the teacher to do the leap from “oh, he knows the Antarctic is a desert and has got mixed up about where the bears live”. It sounds like a deliberately wrong answer which is understandably irritating.

I say this with sympathy as someone who had to be taught repeatedly about “expected answers” and “school is not really for you to personally tell the teacher stuff you’ve learnt outside school”.

Your DS will fly with the right environment. He probably needs to develop a few skills in terms of giving the 'right' answer. Don't squash his creativity too much though. My DD had a couple of fairly meh teachers at Primary and was sometimes frustrated or bored. She also had a couple of really gifted educators and the difference is amazing. Hang in there, keep him engaged and enthusiastic.

He isn't arrogant or facetious, he really isn't. He is a curious little boy who maybe wants to impress people with his knowledge, get conversations started, how sad that this is seen as arrogance and should be squashed

But lesson time isn’t the place to do that. Education is skills based not knowledge based.

They aren’t ‘learning about polar bears’ they are writing a story, heading subheading, opening lines, including verbs, similes, expander brown phrases, the subject matter is irrelevant! Or a newspaper report, adding quotes, witnesses statements, opening paragraphs, photo, caption: etc.

The point about desserts or not it’s not the point of the lesson

I don’t hate your son and I don’t think it sounds like he is arrogant or smug. Even if he were, he is a child and like all children is growing and changing. If there are any social lessons to be learnt then it will come and he’ll find his way. He is a child and for what it worth I think he sounds great and I’m sure he’ll go far!

Going against the grain I actually think it’s poor form form the teacher. A few sentences of unpicking would have included him and helped draw out a quieter member of class and not harmed anyone else’s learning. Job done in 30 seconds. Undermining a child by calling their response ridiculous is pretty awful and probably worse for everyone in the class - who is going to want to have a go putting their hands up if that’s the response they get?

The much greater risk is that your DC is miserable, dislikes school. Part of it may be about giving him an outlet and stretch outside school esp if he is bored, but I wonder whether it’s worth thinking about his self esteem and making him feel valued. He obviously gets that from you as you sound like a loving mother but some validation from others is good too - I love a curious child and I’ll indulge precocious or socially awkward kids because they are children. For example if you go to things like museum open talks there are people who love to interact with curious children. DS once had a crowd of engineers competing to blow things up or set fire to things to demonstrate the answer to some questions he had at a steam fair!

I also think there’s nothing wrong in acknowledging that teachers are human and sometimes get things wrong.

Good luck to you and him!

I'm a secondary school geography teacher. If a cold said that to me it would lead into a discussion about climate and what a desert is. The trouble is primary teachers aren't subject specialists in all areas so to do that would require knowledge specific to climatic zones and ecosystems.

He sounds bright and bored. Very bright children often "play" with a teacher if they think they know more. It's not unusual. It's better though if they can "spar" with the teacher, it's usually what they're looking for! It sounds like he just needs stimulating tbh.

I'm not blaming his teacher, this is just how it is!

Why don't you ask him to write down everything he wants to know more about when he gets in from school and do some research together. I think you also need to talk to his teacher again!