How can NT people be more supportive towards autistic people?

[eyeseeyou]

Reading the autistic support thread for those in relationships with NT people has prompted this.

I can see there are problematic areas. But how can NTs be more supportive (instead of causing problems for autistic people)?

I won't pitch in much (I am NT). This is a space for autistic people to say what they would like so as an NT person I know how to interact (?) live alongside (?) autistic people better.

If that's ok. Ignore if not.

@Gilead

Thanks op, you are very thoughtful. My contribution: We are not all on the spectrum. We are not all like Sheldon. We are valuable members of society, please treat us as such, not as circus folk to be pitied, belittled, poked fun at. We are autistic, we don’t ‘have autism.’ Please do not tell us we would have fewer traits if we changed our diet, added vitamins or have regular this, that and the other treatment. No we didn’t’catch it from the vaccine’ Oof ! Sorry about that, it sort of tumbled out!

Oh I'm the opposite. I have autism, I'm not autistic! I always correct people if they say that.

Perhaps be kinder! And stop with the stereotyping i.e. no empathy.

I find NT women SO difficult to deal with, if I come across as too direct, they come across as underhanded/two faced.

Tend to work better with NT males.

Would also love to remove the gender/sexism of AS males being "quirky" "intelligent" "eccentric". AS females just weird.

NT females are the worst at this.

Also no interest in standing around gossiping about neighbours/co-workers. NT females seem to have so little else to talk about.

Perhaps be kinder! And stop with the stereotyping i.e. no empathy.

I've just started a new thread about whether people actually want empathy. I'd be interested in responses from autistic people as well as NT people.

Also no interest in standing around gossiping about neighbours/co-workers.

I'm NT - don't like gossiping either.

Would also love to remove the gender/sexism of AS males being "quirky" "intelligent" "eccentric". AS females just weird.

Absolutely agree, this is wrong.

NT females are the worst at this

Erm..unfortunate you have observed this. I'll do my best not to help create a new stereotype.

Don't expect autistic adults to be exactly like autistic children.

Nobody says to NT adults "are you sure you're neurotypical? My five year old nephew's neurotypical and he LOVES Paddington and won't stop talking, but you don't have a single Paddington t-shirt and you're quite quiet for a NT. No offence! Just asking!"

Well it’s tricky isn’t it because you won’t know if someone is ND in most cases. And you are free to be friends with / socialise with who you want. So nothing is going to solve the problems a lot of us face with making friends and being included.
But - stop tagging all your mates on Facebook ‘my 40 amazing women’ because that’s a bit shit. Stop picking people at work - get the team leader to organise work streams, who goes next in introductions rather than people picking each other. Make things merit and opportunity based not friend based in the workplace. Don’t refer to someone being a bit on the spectrum, a bit OCD etc.

I mentor a new colleague at work who has autism. When he told me I asked how he would like to be supported if he needed it, what made him feel uncomfortable, how he preferred to learn new tasks, to take breaks when he needed them, let me know if he was feeling overwhelmed or struggling, grab me for a chat if he was worried or wanted to talk etc. I hope that was ok? I've not written it down or made a report or anything as it's his personal information, he's not a project that needs a manual.

He's loving his role but it can be quite stressful and I want to make sure he's feeling ok without looking like I'm trying to mother or control him, if that makes any sense?

Sounds perfect to me @iklboo , specific about what’s possible and wthat he can ask you anytime etc but not bossy.

@HunterHearstHelmsley I’m very visual so the ‘have autism’ thing to me seems that I pop it in my backpack before I leave the house!
To me it’s who I am, I don’t have autism, I’m not a person with Autism (seen as holding hands in a bar with a fuzzy shape) I am me and I’m autistic. But that’s my take and if you are comfortable with yours then that’s fine.
Having said that I’m a retired part of an autism diagnostic team and I still write occasional policy documents, so they all state autistic person!

Interesting about the having autism/ being autistic thing. I say autistic because it's about a different way of being, not a pathology that's wrong.

I would say "I'm British, I'm tall, I'm a redhead, I'm autistic".

@TheLightSideOfTheMoon

The awards were at work, btw.

I wasn’t the only one upset by it.

A bit of research could’ve avoided the upset.

This is AWFUL! How offensive! Sorry, this is none of my business, because I don't have ASD- but just to confirm this was a really inappropriate thing to do, ASD or not. It's public humiliation, effectively, in the name of humour. Whatever their intention, it was a really bad idea.

[quote Gilead]@HunterHearstHelmsley I’m very visual so the ‘have autism’ thing to me seems that I pop it in my backpack before I leave the house!
To me it’s who I am, I don’t have autism, I’m not a person with Autism (seen as holding hands in a bar with a fuzzy shape) I am me and I’m autistic. But that’s my take and if you are comfortable with yours then that’s fine.
Having said that I’m a retired part of an autism diagnostic team and I still write occasional policy documents, so they all state autistic person![/quote]
The crazy thing is.. I'm part of a policy committee so ours all say "with autism"! My thinking is it doesn't define me, I am not autistic, I have autism. It does tickle me that we'd both be furiously amending each others policies!

I think it just shows what others have been saying, one size does not fit all

I think the discussion over language shows how important it is to listen to the individual and what works for them.

As the parent of an autistic child I would always take my lead in that sense from the people in the conversation. The only one that really winds me up (possibly irrationally) is when someone says my Autism Son or similar.

My thinking is it doesn't define me, I am not autistic, I have autism. It does tickle me that we'd both be furiously amending each others policies!
🤣🤣🤣

Well I have to say, the autism/ autistic issue caused heated debate in our house because I was taking my lead from autistic adults, and DH - who works for a nfp which specifically works in this area was telling me that I must be wrong because their organisation says has autism.

"You know, same as you don't now say someone "is Downs" or is "insert any abhorrent word that means they live with cerebral palsy".

There was an article last year citing work with an autistic led group saying it should be"is autistic", and apparently that was finally enough proof. He forwarded said article to the team, and they've been working on changing the language!

The very very odd thing is that I'm pretty sure he's neuro diverse too, but, although he's even suggested it himself, he has no interest in getting it assessed. Which is completely up to him. He has so many structures and rules in place, I now realise, to get through life, I think he thinks the sky would fall in if he thought about it too much.

He is the stereo type from the 50s (or should I say 2020s), appears to have little empathy (although now I recognise the bafflement in his face, he really doesn't get it, he's not actually being cold), will randomly start talking about an area of hyper interest, and not notice I can't cope, etc etc.. we're actually a terrible fit.

He once said to me, when I was crying, that the only reason he thinks to acknowledge people in his team with flowers etc if they achieve something, is because it's a duty, and that's what managers do, and it makes everyone work better. And he has a list of things to do like that!

He doesn't do anything "spontaneous" and "just because" at home, because when he gets home he can relax and stop thinking like that.

You can imagine that at the time, I had been getting very upset at his lovely gestures to everyone except me. Now I understand. We now have a mixture of very planned gestures, birthday etc, and me not caring the rest of the time/ buying my own flowers.

Sorry, that was one of my tangents. Hope this truly is a safe space

@lborgia
I hope this is a safe space too. That's why I started this thread.

Regarding empathy. As a said previously I am NT but NTs don't find empathy straightforward either.
I also started this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4451386-do-people-actually-want-empathy

Which shows the subject of how we give and receive empathy is quite individual and complex. Feeling empathy is one thing, expressing it appropriately is another! What is appropriate is another! I'd love to hear autistic people's own perspectives on that thread if any of the autistic posters on here are interested in giving it.

And because NTs don't find empathy straightforward it is also why we need this thread. And why we need safe spaces to discuss how we feel and what is supportive.

I’ve been working with Autistic children and teens for 25 odd years (now retired). One of the things that I work with is this myth about empathy. We do feel it, initially we may not understand those phenomenally overwhelming feelings and they panic us, we therefore, at some point make a decision to shut those feelings down because we associate them with similar trauma based feelings. If anything, many autistic people feel empathy to such an extent it doesn’t feel like a safe place to travel.
Am I making sense?

Am I making sense?

Makes absolute sense to me @Gilead. I had a thought, myself, about how unnerving emotional empathy can be. Taking on someone else's emotions which might not be entirely positive, productive or even how you would like to ideally feel in the situation, is not always welcome. To me it can feel like losing myself. And I'm NT. I think that's why some people can seem less than kind and seek to minimise others emotions or at least appear too. They might just be trying to find a mutually beneficial solution to an uncomfortable emotion (that is shared through the phenomenon of empathy).

Just listen. It's so simple. I was trying to tell someone on another thread earlier that 'not paying attention' and 'not understanding' are not the only 2 options when I'm being spoken to by a cashier in a shop. The poster argued I was wrong, they of course have autistic family members and are a psychologist. It's so bloody exhausting. If I give my own experience I don't need someone to come along and try to belittle me I just need them to listen. Why can't they listen? I'm autistic. Why does my experience not count

@elelel

Why does my experience not count

It absolutely does count!

I must admit I have been guilty of not wanting to listen. Wanting to pitch in with what I think of as solutions or sometimes a challenging question. Because that's what I like people to do with me when I am talking about my own experiences. I absolutely do listen, though.

On the thread, (linked to upthread) I posted about empathy I explain why I am tempted not to simply listen and it's simply because my empathy is framed through my own experiences. I don't always want people to simply listen to me when I am talking. I want them to interject, sometimes challenge. Because that's how I feel they are properly engaging and actually thinking about what I say and not just pretending to, as in agreeing with me for a bit of quiet or to shut me up. So sometimes I actually feel guilty for simply listening.

However, I am increasingly seeing that not everyone welcomes challenge and questions like I do. They want to just be listened to. So I won't feel as guilty just listening when that is what is needed.

So there you are a glimpse into not always entirely functional and sometimes confused NT mind - incase you were wondering.

But, yes, just listening is often exactly what is needed! And sorry for where I have failed in this.

I am neuro divergent and Ds1 is ASD. We both really struggle with arbitrary rules around "rudeness". Mn freaks me out sometimes because there is chapter and verse in this whole complicated system of what is acceptable and what isn't. I am older and have somewhat trained by rote. For example I struggle with sharing my experience because I am trying to show empathy. So i truly am not trying to make it about me and will ensure I ask questions and sympathise ( I had to learn that one because my brain tells me that I am sitting and listening so surely it's obvious that I care and feel bad for the.....took a while to get that one).

I always make space to ensure someone can talk from their perspective but the only I seem to show empathy is by sharing where I have been through similar. I'm not trying to take away from their experience and I desperately feel for them. However so many people seem to view this behaviour (in general not specifically me) as rude and self involved and arrogant.

I guess I'd like NT to just consider the whole. That maybe I'm not rude and self involved if you take into account the whole behaviour.

Does that make sense?

Actually I'm general if someone could pass me the handbook that seems to be issued to all NT in the world about what is classified as rude and what isn't that would be great, it's really not as obvious as people think!!

But then I am a very solutions orientated person. Too much venting makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't like feeling the anger or sadness I don't like empathising emotionally with it for too long. I have a tendency to always wanting to diffuse it. Finding solutions to what has caused it. I process in private.

My own baggage. But not every NT is the same as me. And I'm getting better at just listening where it is needed - I hope. People say it helps them and I have to hold onto that.

One thing I find massively helpful if I'm going somewhere new is if a company is really clear about where they're located. As well as a map location, a photo of the building and a note about parking / public transport. It helps reduce anxiety for me.

Actually I'm general if someone could pass me the handbook that seems to be issued to all NT in the world about what is classified as rude and what isn't that would be great, it's really not as obvious as people think!!

There really isn't one! NT people are rude all the time! To each other, to ND people! And you don't sound that rude to me giving your explanation.

The whole point of this thread is so NT people can be more supportive to Autistic people. It can be tribal sometimes. Whoever is different to a group gets criticised! I hope this thread alleviates some of that.