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Why is my midwife trying to talk me out of epidural

348 replies

Melvin2021 · 03/01/2022 23:30

Hi I'm 38.5 weeks and I've been pretty certain from the off that I would like an epidural when in labor obviously if everything goes to plan. Mt midwife said I don't want one and to see how I get on? Has this happened to anyone else?

OP posts:
HacerSonarSusPasos · 04/01/2022 16:49

@Soontobe60,

The very last sentence of the study you quoted:

It has also added that there is no effect on the CS delivery rates and the observed increase is due to the presence of confounding factors.

So there is correlation, but not causality. The say it plain as day.

Greybeardy · 04/01/2022 19:00

@Soontobe60 from a quick skim read, your article only looks at primips under 40 with a normal booking BMI who were being induced, so may not be universally applicable. It also, by its own admission, is flawed by not stating the epidural infusion regimes used (which may be a significant contributor to different outcomes).

Chanel05 · 04/01/2022 19:01

Yes they did during labour. It was a gift of medical science. Get the epidural if you need it.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

youvegottenminuteslynn · 04/01/2022 19:07

@Cherrytart23

I enjoyed giving birth twice with no medical Intervention and I know how the pain feels it ain't that bad

What a ridiculous thing to say.

You know how your pain was for your two births.

You have no idea what every individual birth is like for every individual mother.

It's comments like yours that make women feel shit if they had a traumatic birth experience or feel ashamed to ask important questions before they give birth.

Insufferably smug and unhelpful.

Greybeardy · 04/01/2022 19:07

[quote TrenchArse]@Greybeardy isn’t Fentanyl just a stronger form of morphine? I looked into it after I had a ELCS for my last child as I was surprised at how out of it I was. I was expecting to find the experience terrifying and had done loads of breathing exercises beforehand as I was terrified of the thought of lying there awake and being sliced open. Within a couple of minutes after having it I was chilled as anything and felt just like I had when I’d been on opiates after an operation in the past. Or is the one done for ELCS different/ stronger than if the woman is expected to carry on labouring?[/quote]
@TrenchArse can obvs only make general rather than specific comments but…

Morphine, diamorphine and fentanyl are all opioids but have different pharmacological profiles. Epidurals and spinals are different techniques too and use completely different drug doses. It would be relatively unusual to use a de novo epidural anaesthetic for an elective c-section - more commonly spinal/combined spinal-epidural is used. If you had just an epidural for an ELCS there may be other things specific to your case that were different too.

Morphine is not routinely used in this country in either spinal or epidural anaesthetics because its pharmacology means it’s more likely to drift upwards and cause respiratory depression (however recent widespread diamorphine shortages mean that this is being debated again). Diamorphine and fentanyl are commonly added to spinal injections because they help prolong the duration of the block and help with post-op pain relief (diamorph more than fent) and their lipid solubility profiles mean they’re less likely to drift higher in the CSF. The doses of both used are tiny compared to the IV/IM doses and any systemic absorption from the csf is unlikely to give any sort of euphoria.

In epidurals for pain relief, low dose local anaesthetic with fentanyl are commonly used. The block for labour though is much lower and less ‘dense’ than the block needed for a section/forceps delivery and the opioid dose is very low. Unless the epidural catheter is passing into/through a vein getting a systemic dose of opioid big enough to cause euphoria is uncommon.

There are different techniques for topping up an epidural to give anaesthesia (as opposed to analgesia) and different people probably do different things with the opioids but it’s less common to put a big dose of opioid down the epidural at the start of the case because there is a higher chance of systemic absorption and the drug affecting the baby. Toward the end of the case with an epidural top-up though many anaesthetist would put a relatively big dose of diamorphine in to the catheter to help with post-op analgesia and the commoner side effects would be nausea and itching rather than euphoria.

Other things that might contribute to a sense of euphoria under spinal would be the relief at actually realising the anaesthetic is working (!)/ the effect that suddenly not having any sensory input from half the body has on the brain once the block is working. Also hyperventilating, which is quite common on labour ward and in theatre, can also cause a light-headed feeling.

Hope that makes sense/helps!

Chanel05 · 04/01/2022 19:17

@Willthewashingeverend

Malpositioned babies make up a huge number of those requiring birth using forceps/vacuum and a lot (not all) of these are caused by the epidural and the position of the woman post epidural. Lying semireclined in bed is one of the best ways to get a back-to-back baby which is how the majority of women are with an epidural. So if there was no epidural to start with, the likelihood of the malposition is reduced and it doesn't become a difficult labour to begin with.

If you have a malpositioned baby to begin with, it can be compounded by the epidural. However, have also seen women stall in labour at a certain dilation due to malposition. They have then had an epi and then been able to rest and relax and they progress well following. Women with back labours are more likely to need an epidural because it is notoriously more painful.

Im very much in the camp of going in to labour with no fixed ideas and just seeing how you go. If you need a epi though, get one!

Exactly what happened to me. My dd was transverse (and back to back), which caused me extreme pain from only 2cm and was making me have back to back contractions lasting a full minute with only a few seconds relief in between. I stalled at 7cm and the epidural gave that relief from the overwhelming pain and I was able to progress to 10cm. I had an emcs but this was down to her being transverse, not due to me having an epidural.
peaceanddove · 04/01/2022 19:20

Why on Earth would you willingly want to experience agony? Why? I simply don't get it.

People endure many other very painful medical procedures, but HCPs wouldn't dream of setting a bone, or removing wisdom teeth without using some serious pain relief.

DebbieHarrysCheekbones · 04/01/2022 19:28

@Chanel05

No hospital would attempt a natural delivery if a transverse baby it could be fatal for both

Did they know your baby was transverse before they attempted to support a vaginal delivery? I hope not!

iloveorange · 04/01/2022 19:30

I'm also pregnant (not as far along as you are) and the plan is to give birth at the MLU if possible (I'm low risk). I just finished reading a book on positive birth and it does sound like epidurals can be the start of a more medicalised birth, which is something I'm weary of.

Having said that, the main goal of the book is to give all the information so that women can make the choices that are right for them.

I am assuming that you have your reasons to want an epidural and that you've done your research or at least thought it through. Your midwife should inform you of the pros and cons, but she CANNOT force you to have a natural or unmedicated birth.

iatetoomuchcheese · 04/01/2022 20:03

Waited ages and then I had a failed epidural (they tried more than once to get it working unsuccessfully) after a long back to back labour. I wasn't able to go home for an unnecessarily long time. I later got infected stitches from the episiotomy. 2nd labour I went to a midwife led centre with no option of a epidural - I had a much better birth experience with no subsequent issues. Taking the epidural off the table for no2 meant I spent more time preparing strategies for an active birth and was much more in control. I wasted so much energy focusing on getting an epidural during no1 that I got stressed and lost control.
If you have done your research go for the epidural but remember they don't always work so have a plan b... and c, d etc

DappledThings · 04/01/2022 20:29

@peaceanddove

Why on Earth would you willingly want to experience agony? Why? I simply don't get it.

People endure many other very painful medical procedures, but HCPs wouldn't dream of setting a bone, or removing wisdom teeth without using some serious pain relief.

I wanted to avoid it for the reasons given very early in the thread. Because it can slow down labour and lead to further intervention. I think it's fair to say many women are influenced by the birth stories of friends. One of my friends said her epidural was brilliant, one found it entirely removed her urge to push and she ended up in a c-section as she stopped progressing. I didn't want to risk that if I could avoid it.

And I never got anywhere near considering an epidural. Which doesn't make me any better than anyone who did. I was lucky, I had fairly smooth experiences and the second was particularly easy. Gas and air plus TENS was perfectly adequate pain relief.

There is no process my own body is following that could be interrupted if the pain is removed if I were to have a tooth removed or a broken bone set. It is not analogous to labour.

Daisychainsandglitter · 04/01/2022 20:36

I would have an epidural in a heartbeat. With DD1 I had a slow back to back Labour where the hospital refused me all pain relief except paracetamol which i promptly threw up and sent me home even though I'd been having contractions on and off for three days and my waters had broken as I was making a fuss. Ended up having her on my bathroom floor. Would take the epidural every time. Honestly the treatment I had with DD1 was barbaric.
If tut want an epidural bloody well have one. I think they're marvellous.

Melvin2021 · 04/01/2022 20:40

Thankyou for all the replies. I'm so unsure now I've never been made aware of it causing all these complications that have been mentioned. Everyone I know thats had one has never had any problems which is just lucky I guess. Basically childbirth is abit of a phobia for me and always has been which is the reason I have been quite sure an epidural was the right choice for me. Got my midwife again tomorrow I'll ask her in more detail about everything. Also just to answer afew comments it wasn't just abit of advising tbh, I was Basically told I didn't want one without an explanation as such

OP posts:
Chanel05 · 04/01/2022 20:46

[quote DebbieHarrysCheekbones]@Chanel05

No hospital would attempt a natural delivery if a transverse baby it could be fatal for both

Did they know your baby was transverse before they attempted to support a vaginal delivery? I hope not![/quote]
Yea, they did know she was transverse. I was forced to push for two hours before they attempted ventouse and then I was a cat 1 emergency c-section. I actually had a major haemorrhage and blood transfusion because pushing her made her in an even more awkward position.

The hospital I gave birth in (at the time and still is) rated inadequate in maternity.

I asked one of the surgeons if I'd had an episiotomy because of the attempted ventouse and they said no, because they knew it wouldn't work but had to go through the motions.

Basically, my hospital have over 40% of births end in a c-section and they want to show that a birth has no alternative than to go to a section, rather than be accused of doing them Willy nilly. In cases like mine, this is of course extremely dangerous. It was a very traumatic experience.

Staryflight445 · 04/01/2022 20:48

They make you sign a form before giving you the epidural. I’ll never forget the last side effect listed being death 🤯.

Spinal headaches are quite common op, they sound absolutely horrendous and fixing the issue sounds even worse.

If you’re scared of childbirth have you looked into hypnobirthing?
I’m terrified around this time around (number 3) , but I certainly wouldn’t think an epidural would solve that fear, it’s not quite as easy as it sounds.

Mo1911 · 04/01/2022 20:49

I'm a nurse and definitely would avoid an epidural!

RedRobyn2021 · 04/01/2022 20:51

Can see you've had loads of replies already but just wanted to recommend the Positive Birthing Company course, it really helped me when I was pregnant. I think once I understood what was happening to my body when I was in labour, it became less scary.

Ionlydomassiveones · 04/01/2022 20:52

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Mo1911 · 04/01/2022 20:52

Give yourself a chance. You don't know that you won't cope assuming that this is your first birth. Don't listen to other peoples horror stories, I've had three children, all big babies, my first was 10lbs and it was definitely doable. Don't underestimate yourself.

Twizbe · 04/01/2022 20:57

@Ionlydomassiveones civilised countries?! Wtf?

You know one of those 'civilised countries' (the US) doesn't give women gas and air in labour because they don't know how to charge for it.

Our uncivilised country doesn't bankrupt women for having babies.

AuntyMabelandPippin · 04/01/2022 21:50

My first birth I had an epidural as it was long and I was unable to move due to the position of my baby. I ended up having a forceps birth and narrowly missed a Caesarean. I actually in hindsight think I was ready to give birth when they gave me it, as I was really mouthy and rude, which is so unlike me I think they should have checked me.

My other three were gas and air only, and I managed fine. I think I could have managed the first one if I'd been moving around, but I'll never know.

It depends on how you are at the time. I'd have it down that you want one, but wait and see how you go.

Good luck.

Neurodiversitydoctor · 04/01/2022 21:55

Gas and air is wonderful, just because it is cheap doesn't mean it isn't very effective and very safe.

BookFiend4Life · 04/01/2022 22:14

My epidural was amazing. I wasn't going to get one because I was afraid of interventions but I had to be induced and it was so painful, I finally told the nurse I wanted the epidural and she practically jumped for joy. The midwife came by later and was annoyed and said I'd had the epidural too soon and that my labor would be stalled and my daughter wouldn't be born for "another 12 hours at least"... she was born an hour later! She also experienced some heart rate issues and at one point during delivery they told me she needed to come out "right now" or I would need an emergency c-section. I was only able to push as hard as I needed to because I wasn't in pain.

I loved my epidural.

Melvin2021 · 04/01/2022 22:34

Glad to read some positive stories aswell because I'm still 80% sure its the way forward for me. The thought of being in excruciating pain doesn't appeal to me to be honest

OP posts:
MissM2912 · 04/01/2022 22:49

It isn’t necessarily excruciating pain- honestly. It isn’t nice but with both my labours, one of which wasn’t great, at no point did I genuinely feel I couldn’t cope with the pain. The sorest part wasn’t the contractions but the head crowning and that honestly only lasts a few seconds.