Do abusive men realise they are abusive?

[PurpleThursdays]

Just pondering some thoughts really. I've had at least 3 exes who could be described as abusive in many ways. I split from my last ex over 2 years ago and thought about what attracts me to them in the first place etc and recognise I tend to minimise and try to pacify bad behaviour from them in the beginning of the relationship. Anyway, that's my issue I'm working on. Won't be doing that anymore.

On a more general note though, domestic abuse is more common than I would have thought. I know both sexes can be abusive but what is it specifically about men that makes them behave in certain ways?

Two of my exes definitely had more traits in common than the first one (first one was when I was 18, we were both young and inexperienced and he was massively insecure and had self-esteem issues which manifested as being over-possessive of me). But the latter two exes were both quick to show aggression at anything they didnt like - no politely disagreeing, but actively shouting. Both gave silent treatment for days. Both use gaslighting tactics. Both dont care how hurt they make you as long as they are in control and 'winning', even though they both lost the relationship in the end. They didn't exactly hide their shitty behaviour in the beginning either, I was just naive in my younger years.

TLDR: do men like this not realise they are being abusive? What's the thinking behind it all?

Disclaimer: not implying all men are like this. Not trying to man-bash.

Really interested to hear from both sexes on this topic.

Of course they know. & I would not waste a precious minute of my time and life ruminating over and analysing and trying to understand them.

They are not worthy.

There are far better things to do, life to create and moments to treasure. Whatever.

@PurpleThursdays Apparently not. There's psychotherapy but few people diagnosed with NPD accept that they're ill.

Mostly, no. Women and children growing up with an abuser recognise the cycle of abuse. Most abusers don't.

They see their controlling, cruel, abusive behaviour as 'logical given the circumstances" or a "one off", never their fault. They are nice guys. Honest. They know they did wrong, but it wasn't their fault and they're really sorry. They love their family more than anything. Too much in fact and that's why they do what they do.

And they believe all this bullshit.

I know of two women who've been diagnosed with NPD (and a few others with narcissistic tendencies) so it's not an exclusively male mental illness.

My ex refused to believe he was abusive because it was not physical abuse.
Psychological torture doesn’t count.

I think it’s entitlement and a need for power which make people abusive and sometimes they genuinely think they are entitled to behave like that. You “deserve” it.

I would definitely describe my ex as emotionally abusive. But I’m not sure how aware he is of it.

He’s selfish to an insane degree, so I truly think he’s convinced himself that anything that doesn’t centre him and his wants is somehow people being unfair to him.
On some level I think he must be aware of it, but at the end of the day I think that he believes that any behaviour is okay as long as it gets the result he wants.

It’s another layer of complicated though because he was diagnosed as autistic just before we broke up (which to be clear is NOT the reason for his asshole behaviour, as he acted very differently when we first got together), so now he has that diagnosis, he sees it as a “get out of accountability free” card.

My ex had no insight whatsoever.

To him all women turned out to be
Crazy - ie had emotions of their own
Lazy - ie didnt want to work ft + , do all housework and wait on him hand and foot.
Gold diggers- didnt want to pass every last penny they had over to him to piss up the wall.
He apparently repeated the pattern of being a nice bloke until he convinced you to move in with him after which the mask would slip.

I expect that some do, but not all. My father is abusive to my mother, and abused me and my siblings when we were children (now all NC). Unlike some abusers, he wasn't charming to outsiders. He had no friends. He lost jobs because of fights at work.

And in all of these cases he would blame the other person. "If you hadn't had the TV too loud, I wouldn't have had to punch you" or "if my colleague wasn't so useless, I wouldn't have had to push his desk over." I've gone back and forth on this over the years, but l think that he genuinely believes that he's right. That still doesn't justify his actions.

I have seen this mentioned a few times on MN and I have just started to read it myself, but it seems it may address some of your questions.

www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Some good insight here. I think the non-violent ones see themselves as non-abusive. They dont recognize that emotional abuse is bad. Maybe because they will never be put in that position of being emotionally abused so can't understand it or how would make a person feel. And maybe if someone did it to them, they would react different to a normal person. Who knows?

My ex was emotional and financially abusive.He was very middle class/white collar/private education.He would never have though he was the problem, he thought everything was my fault.
I think this is usual?

@PurpleThursdays

I'll never understand why they do it. The psychology of actively pursuing a partner, only to berate them and belittle them amongst many other numerous things. There is no logic. Especially since many if them end up on their own. They might as well have just skipped the middle step and remained single til they figure out their desire to be arseholes.

OP abusers want to be in a relationship- it doesn't work for them to stay single..... but for them, being in a relationship involves controlling, having someone who adores them and never makes them feel insecure or challenged in anyway.

They think that is out there, and then whenever inevitably their partner 'let's them down' (ie by being an individual/having a friend/disagreeing with something/doing well at something/having another priority)... they try to bring the person back into line, by punishing/controlling... this often starts small but escalates- kind of like a drug when the abuser realizes they get a kick out of being the powerful one or feels relieved at the temporary 'compliance' they win.

The abuse is a way to keep someone in a relationship, not to get out of the relationship, from the abuser's point of view . It erodes the other persons self esteem and sense of agency. It punishes and coerces to get compliance. Often the victim is gradually cut off from their family and loved ones so they have nobody to turn to and have no reliable person to reflect back reality. They are gaslighted and told they are the crazy ones. Their finances are controlled. Etc. all of these are to keep control and therefore continue the relationship.

In terms of whether they can/could control their behaviour - yes 99% of them could, as they don't aggress other people. That means deep down they can control themselves if they want to. They are deciding they are fine with yelling at/hitting/denigrating they're wife, when they never would to their boss for example. If they have the same horrific, off balance behaviour towards everybody and frequently pay a price for this and are denigrated by society for it, then that doesn't excuse it, but it suggests their problem is less motivated by self-interest.

Now the question of 'do they know' is complicated. Some simply know totally consciously and consciously manipulate their whole lives. But Very few would say out loud they are abusers even to themselves, because they are masters of bullshit self talk, which they work hard to believe. This almost always involves believing they are the victim, other people make them do it, yes sure they shouldn't shout, but at least they didn't do X, the other person is crazy and just pressed their buttons, they are a good person deep down, they just have X issue, they will be better next time...etc. it is the same bullshit they feed their partner to keep them on the hook.

There are many different levels of conscious and unconscious brain, and self-deception. Really the issue is not whether they know. You stay away from a lion because the lion could kill you. Doesn't matter whether the lion understands what he is doing.

One man was drunk and said he will warn me that his relationships failed as he always tried to control his exes. We did not have a relationship. So yes, some know exactly what they are doing.

I don't think so; my friend is a social worker and she's told me that men are always the last ones to 'get it' no matter what the situation is. She says time and time again men will bury their head in the sand insisting that whatever the circumstances that have lead to them having SS involvement are completely normal until either the very last minute or until it's too late. By contrast she says she usually finds women much more open to change and to help.

I married in to a family where a man three generations up was extremely abusive. It's very interesting to see how that has filtered down through the generations and how the perceptions of what is 'normal' vary between my family and dh's family. Even my dh who is lovely and has had a lot of therapy to overcome certain aspects of his childhood prides himself of being 'not as bad' as his dad who in turn is 'not as bad' as dh's grandfather.

I expect many don't. As to why, I expect in part it is because they think or even know they can get away with it.

I had a conversation with my DM about my childhood and upbringing and she genuinely couldn't see that the way she wanted things wasn't always the right way for everyone, that falling in line with her and what she wanted often caused the people around her issues in other areas and took it as a personal slight if things weren't done exactly as she desired, in the timeframe desired. She thought that these things were done to specifically annoy her, she was waging a war with everyone around her based on thinking that everyone's sole aim in life was to piss her off. That just wasn't true, in the kindest way, she wasn't that important for everyone around her to base their lives on annoying her, but she believed she was. That led to her being defensive and also aggressive towards most people close to her as she felt constantly attacked, and when she behaved like that, people responded by being defensive, leading her to accuse them of being over sensitive. But to her it was justified because she was the victim of an 'attack'.
For example, I didn't miss the bus home from work on purpose to piss her off, I missed it because I was late out of work, completing things that need to be done that weren't possible to do during my shift hours for various reasons. But on getting home, it was all about me doing it to annoy her because I knew being late would annoy her and therefore it must have been done on purpose. No thought that maybe I didn't want to stay back, that I didn't like getting home late and would only do it because I had to, the whole situation became about her, with her screaming and shouting and becoming physical and justifying that because she felt like I'd done this on purpose to annoy and upset her.
The example above is just one over many years, from being belted for dropping something 'on purpose' or hurting myself falling over and then crying (as a child) and being berated for crying as it made her feel bad.
I think it was down to control, she needed to be the ultimate control in my life and felt she could only achieve that through fear and my reliance on her, and she couldn't deal with the fact that I deemed other areas (like my job) more important to me than her tantrums.

I think ultimately, most abuse is about control and ego, bolstering the ego by controlling someone else to make the controller feel important and worthy.

I don't think many people have insight into how their behaviour affects others.

They never do and they genuinely believe they are the victims. This is definitely the case with my FIL. He still to this day believes my MIL is an evil witch who took his kids away and that he is completely innocent, nothing at all to do with the fact he is a violent alcoholic 🤷‍♀️

Changed name to tell this story.

Some years ago, i dated a man who at the start was perfect. It didn't last long and within months he was abusive, racist, vitriolic and terrifyingly angry.

He would insult me relentlessly and when I would say something he would scoff and say "learn to take a joke; you make an issue out of everything" repeatedly he would verbally abuse me and reduce me to tears and then blame me. He once tried to kick me out of the car 200 miles from home in the snow... that was the last straw.

He made me apologise for a ride home and beg. While sobbing and panicking because it was 8pm and I couldn't get a taxi on the middle of a motorway.

When discussing his behaviour he told me it was all my own fault and he wasn't abusive I was abusive. He had that same response when calling me names, screaming, trying to do things to me sexually I did not want him to do. He had a history I would later find out of being a victim to the women he would abuse relentlessly. He also threatened to physically assault my friends and ex partners and apparently that was their fault.

I left him that night and 2 months later he sent me an email about what a selfish useless waste of space I was. How I was a failure as a parent and a daughter and I deserved to kill myself. I never replied and instead I moved house, deleted social media and got therapy to help me process what he had done. I have never dated anyone else like it and can spot the signs

To this day he would maintain innocence. I never so much as raised my voice to him. I never called names or controlled in any way. Every form of abuse he could dish to me he did, he even tried to forcefully move into my house. He saw nothing wrong.

So no. Most abusive people will always see you as the problem. Even if you sit silently while they abuse you for a mistake they made.

They are entitled to behave badly.

Don’t waste your time trying to understand - except for educating yourself as to what to avoid in the future and how to recognise it - since they are empty shells, lost souls just voids.

When you feel pangs of guilt or sorrow or longing just remember that you were never and could never be loved by them. They are unwell. It’s not your job to rescue then or be their punchbag of any kind. It not your job to “get them”

It IS however, your job to live your best and happiest life since you only get one and that will never happen with them in it.

Learn to truly love and value yourself more than them.
That’s how you survive.

You owe them nothing.
They already took far too much.

They tend to give the stronger, more confident and assertive person a wide berth.

I don't agree with this. Abuse victims can be all sorts of personalities and from all walks of life. They include doctors, solicitors ever psychologists. Women are often in high power, high status jobs and capable of being financially independent.

Perpetrators are the same and include many men in positions of trust - doctors, dentists, teachers etc

I agree with the don’t waste your time trying to understand

There are some who emotionally abuse who are maybe not aware of how harmful they are being but they are aware the power it brings

I believe most enjoy this power. Their insecurities may lead them to try and be controlling but once have it, it makes them feel better so will carry on with no thought to the impact on others

They are not out of control they make a choice to behave in the way they do and vast majority of the time how they behave is different depending on the relationship/situation

How many will by aggressive/violent in the company of in-laws, their friends sadly many will in front of their children

To clarify, my trying to understand is purely academic now. I've healed (mostly) from my past, even though the father of my kids is still a twat to this day. I'm no longer the person I was, i recognise the abuse for what it is and will never be in a relationship with someone like that again.

I'm purely interested in this on a philosophical level. But pp summed it up earlier - some people lack the insight to see how their behaviour effects others. I think some abusers know they do it and get off on it and some just don't see themselves as being abusive at all cos their heads are wedged up their arses. Whichever category they fall into, they all follow the same script and nothing they do is ever their fault. They blame, blame and blame again.

If there's such thing as karma, I hope abusive twats get it all back tenfold.

Apparently I have severe mental health problems as I've got an aunt & a cousin with them. It's all me, Obviously. The only mental heath problem I had was him. I actually think he sees himself as a victim. Though I did feel sometimes he couldn't believe he got away with the abuse.