Do abusive men realise they are abusive?

[PurpleThursdays]

Just pondering some thoughts really. I've had at least 3 exes who could be described as abusive in many ways. I split from my last ex over 2 years ago and thought about what attracts me to them in the first place etc and recognise I tend to minimise and try to pacify bad behaviour from them in the beginning of the relationship. Anyway, that's my issue I'm working on. Won't be doing that anymore.

On a more general note though, domestic abuse is more common than I would have thought. I know both sexes can be abusive but what is it specifically about men that makes them behave in certain ways?

Two of my exes definitely had more traits in common than the first one (first one was when I was 18, we were both young and inexperienced and he was massively insecure and had self-esteem issues which manifested as being over-possessive of me). But the latter two exes were both quick to show aggression at anything they didnt like - no politely disagreeing, but actively shouting. Both gave silent treatment for days. Both use gaslighting tactics. Both dont care how hurt they make you as long as they are in control and 'winning', even though they both lost the relationship in the end. They didn't exactly hide their shitty behaviour in the beginning either, I was just naive in my younger years.

TLDR: do men like this not realise they are being abusive? What's the thinking behind it all?

Disclaimer: not implying all men are like this. Not trying to man-bash.

Really interested to hear from both sexes on this topic.

@ArblemarzipanTFruitcake

But are they really incapable of internal reflection? That's the burning question.

Yes, but their internal reflection is distorted, as if they're in a house of mirrors at the funfair. Their internal reflection presents them back to themselves as the victim, the long-suffering husband of a useless wife.

They like to pay the 'blame game' so they can justify to themselves that their behaviour is acceptable and even justified but none of these people behave like this to workmates friends etc

Have you heard of external and internal attribution theory in psychology.
Basically if you personally present a behaviour you blame external factors as to why you did what you did but if someone else displays a behaviour others blame internal factors.
For example if you are late your likely to think ‘I was late because there was lots of traffic’ but if someone else is late you are likely to think ‘they are late because they are not a punctual person’. Is psychologically protective.
So basically it’s likely most abusers externally attribute their own behaviour ‘I was angry because she did x/I had a shitty childhood/I have too much stressful work on’ rather than ‘I’m abusive because I’m a narcissist’. Not sure if I’m explaining it right, but hopefully that makes some sense.

@elelel

do men like this not realise they are being abusive? What's the thinking behind it all?

Of course they know. The thinking? It's all about power and control and every single one of them who is subjecting their partner to domestic abuse isn't doing it to their friends and colleagues. Yes, they know alright.

This with bells on … the outside world ( family , friends , colleagues ) often see a man so charming they would honestly struggle to believe the domestic behaviour of these abusive men . Yes , they know , but it’s all about them and they just will not take responsibility for their appalling actions .

@WeRTheOnesWeHaveBeenWaitingFor

Have you heard of external and internal attribution theory in psychology. Basically if you personally present a behaviour you blame external factors as to why you did what you did but if someone else displays a behaviour others blame internal factors. For example if you are late your likely to think ‘I was late because there was lots of traffic’ but if someone else is late you are likely to think ‘they are late because they are not a punctual person’. Is psychologically protective. So basically it’s likely most abusers externally attribute their own behaviour ‘I was angry because she did x/I had a shitty childhood/I have too much stressful work on’ rather than ‘I’m abusive because I’m a narcissist’. Not sure if I’m explaining it right, but hopefully that makes some sense.

That does make sense. In the late analogy, some people would persistently blame the amount of traffic. Which may be true. But others would learn from it and either find a different route. Or set off earlier to avoid it.

Not sure I'm making sense now. But imv I've found abusers to be inflexible in their thinking methods.

For the most part I'd say yes, they are aware but the key factor is in determining whether someone is just flat out a horrible, abusive person (to everyone) or carefully does it, masks and hides it well so it's directly only at their partners.

The latter tends to be exceptionally good at painting themselves in a blindingly bright, beautiful light to everyone else and they excel when it comes to selecting the sort of person / partner with whom they will be able to quickly and easily manipulate.

They tend to give the stronger, more confident and assertive person a wide berth.

A male relative of mine is a horrible, utterly vile drunk and so abusive to his partner and started laying the foundations to paint her as this menopausal nightmare making him the victim but he knows we're wise to it and is on his absolute best behaviour at all times when around us.

If I caught him in the act I'd floor him but trouble is, he knows this hence why even when he's pissed out of his trolley he still behaves.

Yes I can't imagine my ex kicking off at someone like he does with me. Over some perceived slight.

No, I don't think so. Not always, anyway. My ex was extremely abusive (the DC and I still suffer from PTSD) but he would always blame us for his outbursts and verbal cruelty. He had NPD so maybe that would explain it.

Hope you don't mind me asking but was he diagnosed as NPD @merrymelodies?

Abusers 100% know what they're doing, even if they "play dumb" and claim they don't. Make no mistake: every aspect of abuse is carefully planned and calculated. And it's just so sad that women are so trained to be kind and caring that we try to convince ourselves that he didn't mean it, that he didn't realise what he was doing etc. Part of the cycle of abuse is brainwashing you. Be strong and stop giving these people the benefit of the doubt. Everything they do is deliberately manipulative. The sooner we can accept this, the sooner we can move on with our lives and do better for ourselves.

My ex knew, he hated his father for doing it to his mother. Afterwards he'd cry and berate himself for being just like him. He still did it again and again. He continued into his next relationship, I know as he told me. I told him he needed to sort himself out or he'd be alone forever and that he'd lost several really good women. He's married now but I have no idea whether it continues as we no longer speak.

I know that his mother was a victim but she knew he hit me as she was there once. She then told me, in front of him, that she could put up with the beatings but it was the adultery which broke them up in the end. I mean, what kind of fucking message is that to give your son?

I think you’d find it helpful to read Why does he do that? By Lundy Bancroft. He addresses this issue in depth having worked with abusers for years. What I’ve taken from it is that as pp say, no, most abusers justify their behaviours with twisted logic. Even those who physically abuse will compare themselves favourably with others - e.g. if he hits his wife, at least he’s not like the man up the road who kicked his wife down the stairs. Bancroft says it’s possible to see a change in some people but it takes a real commitment to therapy. Yes in an ideal world you’d prevent this from happening in childhood, but while you have children being raised in dysfunctional environments it’ll never stop. What you can do sometimes is recognise the behaviours early on in a relationship and learn who to avoid. Reading Why does he do that? and doing The Freedom Programme online have helped me.

I'm beginning to think we dated the same man. Either that, or there is a script out there they have read and followed.

It's because abusers all operate the same way. Practically every time there's an abuse thread on here, one or two of the replies will ask "Does this guy live in [name of town]? or "Does he have the initials [initials]?" thinking it could be the same guy. And while it could technically be a coincidence and it turns out to be the same guy, 99.9% of the time it isn't. It's just that millions of us have the same story, because abusers basically all operate the same way.

I'm sure violent abusers realise, but there are many shades apart from that. I worry that one of my sons will turn out like that. He was a really difficult child, and we parented him harshly as a result. Boys I think are often not given the benefit of the doubt and his father is particularly hard on him. He's only six, but I often worry. Testosterone, and the insecurity that our shitty parenting breeds.

No, not just violent abusers. The same also applies even if it's "only" emotional abuse. All abusive relationships start with emotional abuse, just that some of them turn physical and some don't. It's still the same cycle of abuse. The ones who are "only" emotional abusers, they still know exactly what they're doing.

What you can do sometimes is recognise the behaviours early on in a relationship and learn who to avoid

I've well and truly wised up now, I've addressed my own attitude to relationships and I vow never to make excuses for it again, never try and pacify a bully with "i didnt mean to upset you, I'll stop doing x" for perfectly normal behaviour on my part and the first sign of it in any future relationships and I'm out of there like a shot.

I read some of Lundy Bancroft a few years back when it was really bad but my ex had traits of so many different guys in there, I found it overwhelming. So I worked on making changes for myself which the ex hated, then found the courage to kick him out once and for all. He's still aggressive but I don't have to deal with it as much now he isn't here. I finally feel like I have some headspace.

I don't think abusers will change as they would have to admit wrongdoing on their part and I rarely see that as the case. Such a shame.

My ex used to terrify me when he turned. His eyes went cold and empty-looking. Only way I can describe it. Then I got this feeling in my stomach... can't even explain that feeling. I just knew things were about to kick off. He must have seen the look on my face but he never softened.

He wasn't physical. The emotional stuff was enough to have me reeling on it's own.

In my experience no, they justify, rationalise and project their behaviours.

Yes they do

They know not to be aggressive or violent in front of others that would put them in their place

@OhWhyNot

Yes they do

They know not to be aggressive or violent in front of others that would put them in their place

That’s true! Is that conscious, I wonder 🤔

It is 100% conscious. Everything is carefully planned.

I have to say, my husband does kick off on other people. When we got married I knew he'd been to jail for assault but it was painted to me like he'd been a hero sticking up for someone and just been blamed. Turns out he's actually got a long history of fighting and has been arrested twice more since weve been married for picking fights when drunk. Once was him against a group of 4 men. Hes also been fired for punching someone at work a few years ago. Again, none of this was his fault, all the alcohol or whoever made him angry

I'll never understand why they do it. The psychology of actively pursuing a partner, only to berate them and belittle them amongst many other numerous things. There is no logic. Especially since many if them end up on their own. They might as well have just skipped the middle step and remained single til they figure out their desire to be arseholes.

@PurpleThursdays No, I'm glad you asked. People tend to bandy NPD about, calling others "narcissists" without a diagnosis or even a proper understanding of what NPD is. My ex was diagnosed.

@PurpleThursdays

I'll never understand why they do it. The psychology of actively pursuing a partner, only to berate them and belittle them amongst many other numerous things. There is no logic. Especially since many if them end up on their own. They might as well have just skipped the middle step and remained single til they figure out their desire to be arseholes.

Because they enjoy it. They enjoy the power they have over you. They enjoy making you jump through hoops to please them. That's why it's so pathetic, and that's why we need to stop trying to excuse their behaviour.

Thanks for answering @merrymelodies. Is he able to do anything about it? Therapy? I've often wondered what happens next with the people who are diagnosed.