What is living in South Africa like?

[RubyFakeLips]

Obviously at present SA/Omicron issue is prevalent, but COVID aside what is it like to live there?

Speaking to old South African colleague today, she again mentioned she would never, ever move back. Says life is awful, family have all emigrated. Yet, in the past 10 years I've know a fair few people move there from the UK.

Curious for some real experiences.

Pressed "post" by accident mid-post.

Here's the full post:

I don't understand the point of this post.

I presume you don't believe in the death penalty.

I also assume you don't believe two wrongs make a right.

Yet you think seem to think because there was Colonialism 50 years ago = it's fine to rob, murder etc now?

Obviously colonialism had knock on effects but how does that make it OK to rape women with impunity?

Also completely naive to think the only victims of violence are white. South Africa has the highest rate of rapes in the world, you don't think black women are raped. I mean obviously you and your friends could walk around at night no problems so everything is great I guess

I stopped listening to the news in SA because every single day there was yet another tragedy. Women and children, especially black women and children are the most vulnerable people in SA, just as they are in most parts of the world, but there is something particularly vile about male behaviour in SA.

This is part is distressing

From 4 year old drowning in a latrine ( because the money to build proper toilets was stolen by the local council) to a 70 year old grand mother raped , murdered and her 3 grand children murdered as well, to young lesbians being “ cured” by gang rape and murder, to that that poor girl murdered so brutally as reported in that article above, and her poor mum who couldn’t go on without her , it was never ending heartbreaking sadness and anger.

We couldn’t bear it anymore and we left. We were fortunate, we could leave, but I worry for my family who are still there & for my friends.
South Africa is an ongoing tragedy, and there is no one cause for it. The lack of education, lack of simple basics like clean water and toilets are ongoing due to corruption from the ANC. Misogyny is a huge problem, same with racism from all sides.
I miss a lot of things about SA, the people of all colors can be wonderful, the scenery and the openness of the sky , but I don’t miss the almost constant feeling of being on edge.
We will visit , but never live there again.

Someone asked about kids being kidnapped/stolen

It has become a thing to kidnap kids for randsom. It’s easy money and parents pay.
Also, kids with disabilities/black children that has albinism disappear. Body parts are used for muti (traditional medicine/black magic).
There are two different kinds of traditional medicine, one is the herbalists who heal with plants, then there is the ‘black magic’ which is much more sinister. My mum was a pharmacist (we grew up in a VERY rural area) and she is fluent in Zulu so she dealt with this kind of thing a lot.

Sounds absolutely awful.

Poor Hannah, RIP absolutely atrocious criminals.

My friends husband who is from there told me that it is very violent in SA. I remember him specifically talking about not feeling safe when using public transport such as buses. He’s glad he’s moved to the UK.

South Africa is AMAZING and I love South Africans. The food, the weather, the wild life and the scenery are just stunning. We had a fantastic 5 years living their as temporary expats but I was glad to return to the UK. The violence, poverty and extreme corruption make it not a place to live.
We never experienced any violence or crime but knowing it was all around you was scary. We lived in a huge gated community which was very safe which helped.

@Mummy195, you seem to have been lucky to be fair. Just because you haven't experienced violence there, does not mean you can downplay the experience of others. Your post does sound a bit like victim blaming.

It is true that your home can be burgled anywhere, but in South Africa there is a bloodlust about it all. So, the home won't just be burgled, there will be violence accompanying it.

One home in Jo'burg was burgled in the day. A part of six were playing bring bridge. The intruders demanded their car keys. They handed them over and then they murdered them all. It's thought that the housekeeper who had worked for this family for many years had let the intruders in. If they hadn't, they would have been killed.

Mandela promised everything would change overnight with no bridging period. That could never happen and now there is frustration thrown into the mix as well.

Large farms were handed over to many in his government, even though the recipients had no idea how to run them. Why would they? There was no orderly take over-just rash promises made that carried consequences.

@Mummy195. You have a very simple view point. The ANC is one of hte most corrupt organisations anywhere and wealth is not distributed evenly. Go into any shanty town and see luxury cars parked outside what can only be described as palaces, while around the corner a family of ten live in a shack.

You do not help by presenting a narrative in which white man always equals bad and black man always equals bad.

It is a complex situation, a tinderbox and anyone who thinks it is only as dangerous as a backstreet in Preston-as someone up thread compared it to- has never set foot there recently, no matter what they declare.

But the next time, you see a family fleeing Preston in only the clothes they stand up in, do let us know.

Muggings happen in Preston, so do burglaries but most of the time, they don't result in someone's head being cut off.

I don't believe you have ever set foot in South Africa or even know someone there now because if you did, you sure as hell wouldn't come out with this appalling shite which helps no-one.

We need to move away from this idea of victimhood imbuing the criminal with a halo and excusing their actions. Why is it the rape capital of the world do you think? Ask yourself some hard questions.

OP.Life in South Africa is dangerous and getting worse. When was the last time you heard of someone-with all their marbles intact-selling up and moving there.

I've got a few friends who used to live there now in UK. All had to live in compounds for houses. Fully walled, gated, guards and guard dogs etc. One family was car jacked and guns to head but lived to see another day by giving them everything. Car, contents and all jewellery etc. Dad got shot in the head, died. Mum thought she would be raped but wasn't. This apparently is common and they were 8/10 year old kids. This was near Capetown

Another family left about 20 years ago because it became too dangerous to stay after one of their house staff was kidnapped, raped and forced into a gangland group. Their neighbours were getting systematically kidnapped and murdered. They left in a matter of weeks. This was Johannesburg.

I've no idea if this makes a difference but they are both from British families who settled there in 1960s

I have a friend whose family lived in SA when he was a child. His father was killed in an RTC. After that, his mum slept with a shotgun under her bed. They wouldn't go back.

I've another friend who married someone whose family was based in SA and they moved there as her father gave him a job in the family business. This was in the 1990s. He was at work one day and witnessed a conversation between two people he was supervising, one of whom took exception to something the other said. An argument ensued, ending in the other being beaten on the head with a metal bar until they died. No one intervened. The family packed their things that night and they moved back to the UK at the first opportunity. The comment he made was that life was just too cheap out there.

I've only heard this second hand but believe it's very difficult to take money out of SA, which makes emigrating tough for many as they have to start a new life from scratch.

@JayAlfredPrufrock

Wow.

Not been for 2 years but none of this is my impression. I’ve walked to the shops in a Joburg suburb, walked the dog down the street and driven thousand miles around the country and never witnessed any violence.

Seems we are quite alone with our views on this SA bashing thread @JayAlfredPrufrock.

Strange that the majority of posts are from those who have a friend of a friend who lived here / travelled here etc., and they heard xyz. I mentioned upthread that I live here. Not one person has asked me about my day to day life.

But I'll leave this thread now because there is absolutely no point in me defending my home here.

I have distant family there. When I last spoke to them they said they could not name a friend who had not been car jacked at gun point. They said they ran red lights routinely at night because stopping was too dangerous.
And its not just "normal violence". Its absolutely brutal. And get in the wrong place, witness the wrong thing and you are dead

@isthismylifenow

I’d booked for February as soon as it came off the red list. There’s another thread somewhere with lots of folk devastated that their plans had to change so we are not alone.

I think you'll find going on holiday there is a million miles away from actually living there!

Seems we are quite alone with our views on this SA bashing thread @JayAlfredPrufrock.

*Strange that the majority of posts are from those who have a friend of a friend who lived here / travelled here etc., and they heard xyz. I mentioned upthread that I live here. Not one person has asked me about my day to day life.

But I'll leave this thread now because there is absolutely no point in me defending my home here.*

This is what I was thinking as well.
You actually live there. I was thinking that Mumsnet is not the place to ask this kind of question, because if the OP wants a real life case of someone who actually lives there, there won't be many here.

OP has to ask themselves why SA property is so expensive if it's a MadMax wasteland. Why are big companies even set up there? Why so many companies go there to make movies, why anyone even
visits or lives there.

What you have on this thread are people whose friend of a friend left SA because of crimes, doctors who complain about bullet wounds - despite the fact that in hospital is exactly where you will see those things.

The person who says what I say is simplistic, then goes on to blame the ANC of corruption, discounting the fact that they had to inherit these inequalities anyway. I remember one older lady saying to me and my friend, right after Mandela was released that this country(SA) did not know what they were doing. There used to be lots of effective transport, police etc. My friend told her, well you had 90% of the resources only servicing 5% of the population before.

I most certainly do not condone the violence, when I am explaining where it comes from, and for the OP to realise the mindset behind some of those people. The brutal violence did not come out of thin air, it's how these people were treated before and the culture goes on, except now it's been exposed.

Most of my remaining family is over there. My Mum was last there just as COVID kicked in. It's not just the safety issue that made her feel she could never go back. It was walking through her old neighbourhoods and seeing all the mini shanty towns that had sprung up everywhere- the extreme poverty and the gated communities keeping it out, and the wealthier people complaining about the sight of it.

I haven't been as an adult and I don't think I could go now in good conscience. I am not rich enough or skilled enough to do anything positive.

I have many many SA friends there is a huge ex Pat community where we live. Most left in their 20’s but a few came in the last few years in their 40’s with older kids. My child’s class parents were over 50% SA. Without exception they all miss SA but all, everyone of them, cites the knowledge they and their children are not at any great risk of violent crime being the number one reason why they came and stay here (whilst moaning about the weather).

My friends would not drive after dark eg to go out for dinner - without being in convoy with at least one other vehicle. All armed. And yes to not stopping at red lights. No way would I want to live like that.

@TameDucksAtChatsworth

I’m well aware that going on holiday is different, but my sibling lives there and has done for over 40 years. And when I go it’s for extended periods living in their house.

SA colleague lives in Surrey with SA wife.

My colleague used to go back and visit his dad once a year in SA but he'll never go back to live there. Too much violence, as pp have said.

He prefers the relative peace of the UK. Yeah, there are problems but it's calmer than SA, he says.

My ex was from SA, he moved to the UK as soon as he was able to at 18 (his Dad was British so he claimed citizenship through him). His younger brother followed suit a few years later when he turned 18. He said it was absolutely horrible, he was held at gunpoint twice as a child in carjackings. I can’t even imagine.

@Mummy195

Seems we are quite alone with our views on this SA bashing thread *@JayAlfredPrufrock*.

*Strange that the majority of posts are from those who have a friend of a friend who lived here / travelled here etc., and they heard xyz. I mentioned upthread that I live here. Not one person has asked me about my day to day life.

But I'll leave this thread now because there is absolutely no point in me defending my home here.*

This is what I was thinking as well.
You actually live there. I was thinking that Mumsnet is not the place to ask this kind of question, because if the OP wants a real life case of someone who actually lives there, there won't be many here.

OP has to ask themselves why SA property is so expensive if it's a MadMax wasteland. Why are big companies even set up there? Why so many companies go there to make movies, why anyone even
visits or lives there.

What you have on this thread are people whose friend of a friend left SA because of crimes, doctors who complain about bullet wounds - despite the fact that in hospital is exactly where you will see those things.

The person who says what I say is simplistic, then goes on to blame the ANC of corruption, discounting the fact that they had to inherit these inequalities anyway. I remember one older lady saying to me and my friend, right after Mandela was released that this country(SA) did not know what they were doing. There used to be lots of effective transport, police etc. My friend told her, well you had 90% of the resources only servicing 5% of the population before.

I most certainly do not condone the violence, when I am explaining where it comes from, and for the OP to realise the mindset behind some of those people. The brutal violence did not come out of thin air, it's how these people were treated before and the culture goes on, except now it's been exposed.

Absoballylutely.

Also, the ones that leave are obviously going to have a 'vote leave' perception.