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Emma Tustin is a murderer

999 replies

DueyCheatemAndHow · 02/12/2021 16:18

Finally. We can say it.

I've just utterly broken down for Arthur.

OP posts:
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5
stillmorerubbish · 03/12/2021 11:07

@JustLikea

What's so awful is that they could have just handed Arthur over to his Grand Parents but instead chose to keep him just to torture him.
Yes, this.

This is one of those cases I wish I had never heard of. To know that a six year old boy is crying 'no-one loves me'. Its unbearable.

I really feel for his mother too.

Bagelsandbrie · 03/12/2021 11:09

@littleburn

I think it's possible to agree that social services is underfunded and that the majority of social workers are doing the best that they can whilst also agreeing that in this case the social worker did not do her job well. Neither did the police officer. Neither did the hairdresser and her boyfriend do their 'job' of being responsible citizens.

It's the 'Swiss cheese' theory of managing risk - you have all these layers of services and individual personal responsibility that should provide safeguards for children. Any safeguard has inherent holes, but if one fails and the others succeed, disaster is averted. If the holes in all those layers line up you get poor Arthur.

Completely agree.

I have a son with severe complex needs and I have nothing but praise for the various social workers we’ve come into contact with - they have no concerns whatsoever over my parenting but due to the nature of his care needs we have had social workers help us at various stages to secure the correct levels of care and support he requires. (We’re talking complex needs school, 2-1 support etc). That doesn’t mean I can’t be angry with social services in this particular case. It’s not one or the other.

ineedaholidayandwine · 03/12/2021 11:10

@Bluntness100

I have to be honest, I sincerely hope both these people are horrifically tortured in prison every single day for the rest of their lives.

Every single day I want someone to feed them salt, starve them, make them stand for hours on end, beat them, abuse them, mock them, make them sleep on the cold floor, video them and let’s us all see. Every single day I want the other prisoners to do that to them, for the rest of their lives.

Just like they did every single day to that little boy. And I want them to live till a ripe old age in prison, taking that daily torture they inflicted, and then die a cold horrible lonely death as people video them and mock them like that little boy died.

It’s the only justice.

I agree with you. I hope their fellow prisoners make their lives a living hell they can never escape from
DaphneDeloresMoorhead · 03/12/2021 11:11

@JustLikea if Tustin's ex is to be believed it was probably to keep the child benefit and any other benefits Arthur's carer would have received

DaphneDeloresMoorhead · 03/12/2021 11:14

@Bagelsandbrie there clearly have been significant failings by SS here, we know from her evidence that the sw didn't speak to Arthur alone, didn't examine him properly. I would have thought that was contrary to any SS department procedures, no matter how crap the team. Presumably they also knew that Arthur was living with a woman whose children had been removed so one might have assumed that they would have been subject to more scrutiny.

I just don't think their actions should be judged in the light of what has come out as part of the murder investigation - because they weren't privy to that.

Switch82 · 03/12/2021 11:14

Another on-going trial here

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-59007900

Gonnagetgoing · 03/12/2021 11:16

All this is shocking and very upsetting re Arthur.

However, approx. 10-15 years ago I was close friends with a Canadian woman in her 30s who worked as a social worker in London. I don't know much about the Canadian social services system but she told me where she worked she was shocked at how much wasn't done, was overlooked, money wasn't assigned to help parents parent better etc in a lot of cases. She felt a constant battle in trying to do her job but did this before 10 years before returning to work to Canada to work as a social worker and gain further qualifications (she already had a degree and relevant qualifications for social work).

@stillmorerubbish - there needs to be more public funding ploughed into not only social worker departments of councils, but also into police, schools - everywhere where you have opportunities to see abuse happening to children.

Many years ago my DM worked as a primary school teacher and SENCO in inner city London and as part of her SENCO work sometimes saw or picked up on children who were quiet etc and was allowed to visit parents at homes. A few parents don't know how to parent - e.g. one child had an metal framed bed, few toys and hardly any books and was expected to behave like children of olden days re behaviour. The thing is, with the correct talks by parents and interactions with school (a few of these parents were immigrants with cultural difficulties but also language barriers) it's fairly straightforward to set them on the paths to being better parents. Yet other children were allowed to stay in cramped conditions but often with older siblings who'd either been in prison or sexually molested them. It's only through teachers talking to the children or picking up on their behaviour (she taught drama and art as well as classroom teacher) that you get clues into why they're behaving strangely or e.g. disturbing drawings.

KurtWildesChristmasNamechange · 03/12/2021 11:16

If people genuinely want SS to start intervening at an earlier juncture then we will all have to accept a far higher level of police/SS interventions in our families.

And I would be fine with that, as I think many people would be. When I was a kid people WERE worried about SS taking their kids away, and as far as I'm aware they could drop in without prior arrangement during the 80s (correct me if I'm wrong!) These days everything is done so softly softly that people aren't frightened by anything - whether that be a visit from SS, the police, of any other 'higher power'. It's pathetic that fear over a visit from these services is diluted because everything has to be PC. Whilst that continues, whilst there is no hardline with these families, children like Arthur and Star and Grace and Kemarni will continue to suffer horrifically at the hands of their 'caters'.

Drinkingallthewine · 03/12/2021 11:17

Way back in the late 80's my family had a SS referral based on my older sibling confiding in a friend that she was beaten. Friend then told her mother who told SS. Sibling was removed from school by SS and a specialist policewoman, and interviewed before DM and DD even was aware.

Happily, in our case, my DPs were willing to work with SS, and took on board that the physical punishments they meted out as a first resort had to stop. They never hit us again and used normal methods of discipline from that point on. The DPs my younger siblings remember and the ones us older ones remember are like two different sets of parents. Life changing, and in a good way, for us DC. Because DM and DD did genuinely love us, did genuinely want us to turn out well, the SS intervention for them was a massive, unwelcome, terrifying and intrusive wake up call where they had no option but to shape up as parents or lose us.

These days, parents would intimidate or scoff at those two angels who were our voice. They'd abuse them and make them too afraid to set foot inside the door. They would be threatened and unable to speak to a child alone. And we would have been just another family of damaged souls either remaining victims of abusive homes or possibly perpetrators. But in our case, in the country we lived in, and at the time, the authorities didn't give a fuck about parental feelings or rights. Their priority was a child at risk, and it was a child-centered approach. I don't know how we've migrated away from that so much where what the adults want takes centre stage.

So here's what I think I'd like to see, based on my own experiences:
I would like to see a system where Arthur's grandmother could have taken him to a healthcare professional trained in child abuse, for an extensive check, well away from a scary parent, before any coaching can take place. Similar to SARC centers, but specific to child abuse. That theoretically I should be able to turn up with my GC/niece/other relative for a full independent check and not be threatened with a kidnap charge for trying to help a child.

I would like to see unannounced visits to the home. And a detailed look at the living conditions of all the children, and know all and any red flags to spot. Where all children spoken to away from their potential abuser, before any coaching can take place by SS workers who are extensively trained and have a manageable case-load. Where police attend if there's a possibility of things kicking off. Where the welfare of the child is the only thing that matters. Not rights or feelings or any of that. Just child welfare at the very heart of it all.

The sibling I mentioned above? Now divorced from her abusive H (see the generational effect there?), her DC are by law forced to visit their DF despite him having moved in with a stepmother who a)barely knows them and b) already told them she hates them and has been verbally and emotionally abusive to them and egging on an already abusive dad to physically abuse them. They are 'othered' in the home they spend 50% of their time in many ways other than the violence. Treated differently to the stepmother's children. And the law is on the fathers side. Any reports my sibling tried to make was treated as malicious towards her ex.

The saving grace is that the DC are mid teens so have somewhat of a voice and are refusing to go to their dads - and we hope that their voice is enough for a judge to give them permission to not see their dad any more. There's already a strong possibility that one of them is a sitting duck for an abusive relationship, and another has the potential to be an abuser themselves given the anger issues they already display - luckily they are all getting great counselling and have been for some years so I only hope it's enough to break the intergenerational acceptance of chaotic home lives.

But we all need to be nosy. We need to stop telling ourselves that maybe we are only seeing a snapshot. Or that shitheads are great dads when they fall so short of the basics a parent should do. My DM called that friends mother all the names when she found out she had been reported by her to SS. Even now, she dislikes her but you know what, I think that woman is fucking brilliant and if I ever get the chance to meet her and tell her that her picking up the phone changed my life, I will.

Nextstationpaddington · 03/12/2021 11:17

Poor Star. What a cruel world. How do these people even exist.

Gonnagetgoing · 03/12/2021 11:17

[quote DaphneDeloresMoorhead]@JustLikea if Tustin's ex is to be believed it was probably to keep the child benefit and any other benefits Arthur's carer would have received[/quote]
I know we shouldn't feel sorry for Tustin - but is no one looking at her background and upbringing? As her behaviour is far from normal for an adult.

DaphneDeloresMoorhead · 03/12/2021 11:19

[quote Switch82]Another on-going trial here

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-59007900[/quote]
I've been watching that one too, so awful. Dd broke her wrist last weekend and it was heartbreaking being with her in the hospital. I thought at the time about Star and wondered how any sentient human could allow - indeed force a child it's a fracture to keep walking on it and fail to get medical treatment.

I hope all four of them have a hideous time in prison

Gonnagetgoing · 03/12/2021 11:23

@KurtWildesChristmasNamechange

If people genuinely want SS to start intervening at an earlier juncture then we will all have to accept a far higher level of police/SS interventions in our families.

And I would be fine with that, as I think many people would be. When I was a kid people WERE worried about SS taking their kids away, and as far as I'm aware they could drop in without prior arrangement during the 80s (correct me if I'm wrong!) These days everything is done so softly softly that people aren't frightened by anything - whether that be a visit from SS, the police, of any other 'higher power'. It's pathetic that fear over a visit from these services is diluted because everything has to be PC. Whilst that continues, whilst there is no hardline with these families, children like Arthur and Star and Grace and Kemarni will continue to suffer horrifically at the hands of their 'caters'.

So people should be worried.

I visited my parents the other day and Arthur's case came up. My step-dad was off the old generation who smacked kids and didn't like you whingeing. He's denied he ever hit my brother and I but I have witnesses of 2 childhood friends of ours when he smacked/beat my brother very badly.

I had to stop myself from losing my temper (and my DM too) by pointing out to my step-dad that there's a big difference between children being naughty and cheeky (as Tustin and Hughes said Arthur was) and differences in a happy, well loved child and also what Tustin/Hughes did re starving him etc is abuse of the vilest order. I think my step-dad from the voice clips of Arthur you can hear he thought it could have been 'whingeing' and I had to restrain myself from having a real go at him about parenting which he knows little/nothing about.

Bagelsandbrie · 03/12/2021 11:25

@Gonnagetgoing there’s no doubt Tustin has serious issues - she was sexually abused at an early age by her Mums partner (not the same partner who reported his concerns about Arthur to social services), she’s tried to commit suicide twice, difficult relationship with her Mum, kids by several different men none of whom she’s stayed with, kids removed from her care etc etc. All of these things must have had a huge impact on her. But she’s not psychotic. She was deemed mentally well enough to stand trial and to stand trial without pleading diminished responsibility. So where do we draw the line with these things? I was an abused child. I’ve had horrendous things happen to me, both as a child and as an adult. I find it very hurtful people seem to assume the cycle of abuse will continue. I would rather die than hurt my children or any child.

At the end of the day she was an adult with the capacity to make decisions for herself.

Gonnagetgoing · 03/12/2021 11:25

@DaphneDeloresMoorhead - apparently Tustin is already receiving abuse in prison (think Daily Mail, yes I know we hate them!) in the form of physical abuse and also salt being thrown at her. Very least she deserves really.

DaphneDeloresMoorhead · 03/12/2021 11:26

@KurtWildesChristmasNamechange would you be so happy if it was your own family ? Imagine a scenario where a vindictive ex or malicious neighbour kept reporting you fir child abuse etc when it was totally spurious. Unfortunately this is a reality for a lot of people. We get lots of reports made about child concerns, when it is clear that there is an agenda. How do you differentiate ?
I'm not trying to excuse failures however the sad reality is that lots of children are used as pawns in family/neighbour disputes. I don't know how you protect those genuinely at risk without taking an exceptionally heavy handed approach to everyone.

The reality of this could be police officers knocking on your door at 2am, removing your children to another address overnight, interviewing them with an unrelated adult, detaining you, questioning you under caution, surveillance on your phone, people being forced to disclose details of new partners to police/SS, intrusive surveillance, spot checks on your property.

PurpleFlower1983 · 03/12/2021 11:28

This shouldn’t happen, things have been put in place since Victoria Climbié to make sure children don’t slip through the net like this. What were social services playing at. So sad for this poor little boy and I hope his parents suffer in jail.

Gonnagetgoing · 03/12/2021 11:30

[quote Bagelsandbrie]@Gonnagetgoing there’s no doubt Tustin has serious issues - she was sexually abused at an early age by her Mums partner (not the same partner who reported his concerns about Arthur to social services), she’s tried to commit suicide twice, difficult relationship with her Mum, kids by several different men none of whom she’s stayed with, kids removed from her care etc etc. All of these things must have had a huge impact on her. But she’s not psychotic. She was deemed mentally well enough to stand trial and to stand trial without pleading diminished responsibility. So where do we draw the line with these things? I was an abused child. I’ve had horrendous things happen to me, both as a child and as an adult. I find it very hurtful people seem to assume the cycle of abuse will continue. I would rather die than hurt my children or any child.

At the end of the day she was an adult with the capacity to make decisions for herself.[/quote]
@Bagelsandbrie - ah I didn't know about Tustin suffering sexual abuse etc.

I don't doubt she isn't psychotic and there's no excuse for her behaviour either. In fact two women I know who have been brought up in care homes, and they wouldn't abuse their children.

I was just wondering about the background of Tustin.

It's quite tragic re Olivia Labinjo-Halcrow dropped out of uni to be with Hughes and suffered mental health issues as her upbringing and future was very bright with a private school education etc.

Lockheart · 03/12/2021 11:30

@Nextstationpaddington

Poor Star. What a cruel world. How do these people even exist.
Often because they experienced similar treatment themselves as children.
thedancingbear · 03/12/2021 11:31

@Bagelsandbrie

I think people are sounding more angry with ss than with Tustin and Hughes at this point because those two have been charged and are due to be sentenced but ss haven’t really been held accountable for their lack of appropriate action.
What would you have happen to them? People on £20-odd k with vast caseloads, working against a couple of psychopaths who were actively concealing their abuse?

Prison? The stocks? Come on, what do you want to happen to the SWs? Not a rhetorical question.

MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry · 03/12/2021 11:32

IknowwhatIneed

@Soubriquet in reality you don’t know how you’d be, because thankfully you’ve not been in that position.

Lots of us have been in the position of our child not breathing or falling and having to be rushed to hospital unconscious. We know how we reacted. You dont know what soubriquet has experienced.

Bagelsandbrie · 03/12/2021 11:34

@thedancingbear I genuinely think the social workers involved in this case should be charged with failing to carry out their duties correctly and failure to protect a child. Losing their jobs - if that has happened, who knows- isn’t enough.

Cassimin · 03/12/2021 11:36

That’s so sad about Olivia, seems Hughes has a lot to answer to. Much more than a manslaughter charge.
I read that Tustin left Arthur in the hallway while eating McDonald’s with her children.
I don’t think there are words to describe her behaviour.

DaphneDeloresMoorhead · 03/12/2021 11:36

Also why is nobody clamouring legislative changes for people that turned a blind eye ? In France I believe it is an offence not to report certain crimes but I'm not entirely sure.
If the neighbours/hairdresser etc had reported all their concerns it would have given a wider picture of the situation and raised more concerns

BigYellowHat · 03/12/2021 11:36

@Bagelsandbrie

Evil woman.

I can’t believe they’ve found Hughes not guilty of depriving food and water - he was in the bloody house with Arthur and must have known he was hungry / thirsty!

They’re both guilty of child cruelty charges, that’s what the papers are saying. I expect this will be covered under those charges.
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