What would it take for another party to be voted in?

[patienceandprudence]

It’s rare that you meet someone who is very for either Labour or the Tories. Of course we’ll all have one we prefer but at the moment it’s a best of two evils sort of situation. They both seem woefully out of touch with people.

But will things ever change? What do you think it’ll take for them to change? I feel quite down about the fact that it seems completely impossible. Life in this country could be so much different if we had a few more options.

Politicians are, on the whole, poor quality people.

The Bank of England pays its governor around £495,000 plus allowances. It needs to pay that to get an intelligent, competent person at the helm.

The prime minister gets just over £150,000. The only reasons to take a job in politics (for a highly educated and skilled person) would be:

1. Too thick to make it in the city
2. Ego, something to prove
3. Make contacts/set up money making schemes for later life
4. Milk the system while doing a proper job on the side that leverages your position in parliament
5. Because your dad did it
6. Because you care...not seen that for a long time

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Like a lot of people, I'm struggling to find anyone to vote for at present. It makes sod all difference to anything, though, as I live in a rock solid Labour constituency and London Borough. There have been times where every single councillor in our borough was Labour. Not sure what the present position is, but there's effectively no opposition at all. In the constituency they could put up a stuffed dummy with a Labour rosette and it would get voted in.

I carry on voting anyway, as I believe it's my civic duty. Women died for me to get the vote. In other countries people are still dying over voting rights. I have to hope eventually my vote will count for something, somewhere. It may have made a marginal difference in the London elections recently where there is PR element.

As for what I am looking for:

Competent, intelligent, sensible and emotionally literate candidates and leadership with varied life experience and backgrounds

Well thought out and costed policies on a range of issues with a good plan prioritising the most urgent things, which for me are health (especially mental health, women's health, health promotion), education, employment rights, affordable housing, support for families, social care for the elderly, disabled and vulnerable, and the environment

AND (I can't believe I have to say this explicitly - a few years ago I would never have thought it possible things would come to this)

They have to know the difference between female and male and why it matters; they have to be prepared to defend women's rights; they have to grasp the importance of safeguarding.

No wonder I'm struggling!

This, absolutely.

I also have never been able to understand why parties aren't held to account when they renege on their manifesto promises. I mean, that's the only thing we have to go on in order to determine if that's the party we want to vote for, right?

They could logistically say that everyone in the country would get a million quid and a puppy, get voted in and then just say " oh sorry, yeah we got that one wrong. Never mind eh" by which time we're stuck with them for five years. ( and don't have a puppy).

@CouldIhaveaword

Politicians are, on the whole, poor quality people.

The Bank of England pays its governor around £495,000 plus allowances. It needs to pay that to get an intelligent, competent person at the helm.

The prime minister gets just over £150,000. The only reasons to take a job in politics (for a highly educated and skilled person) would be:

1. Too thick to make it in the city
2. Ego, something to prove
3. Make contacts/set up money making schemes for later life
4. Milk the system while doing a proper job on the side that leverages your position in parliament
5. Because your dad did it
6. Because you care...not seen that for a long time

David Cameron has got £120,000 for an hour long talk about Brexit since he left number 10. I image he does quite a few pretty sweet gigs like that. Doesn't look so thick now, right? ( I say this as a lifelong socialist, just in case anyone gets the wrong end of the stick )

The attraction for a lot of MPs is in becoming an ex MP and being able to rinse the after dinner circuit.

A fair and balanced press.

I used to be against the idea of PR thinking that UKIP could have number of seats in parliament

But if they had we wouldn’t have had the referendum those who are anti EU would have been represented (i know UKIP are not a purely anti EU party)

So you would have members in parliament with more extreme views. Germany, Austria, Netherlands have this

But as PR isn’t happening anytime soon Labour need to concentrate on being the better party with a clear agenda and possibly a new leader (and certainly a different deputy) Labour need to represent all voters and engage with them. Not just those who agree with whatever the current idea they favour at that time

@DedalusBloom

David Cameron has got £120,000 for an hour long talk about Brexit since he left number 10. I image he does quite a few pretty sweet gigs like that. Doesn't look so thick now, right? ( I say this as a lifelong socialist, just in case anyone gets the wrong end of the stick grin)
The attraction for a lot of MPs is in becoming an ex MP and being able to rinse the after dinner circuit.

Peanuts. When I made point 3, I was thinking about Tony Blair's "non-profit" organisation that charged nearly $12 million for Middle East consultancy work in 2018. He is reputed to have made personal gains of around $90 million from the ME since he left office.

On top of after-dinner speaking

Did this thread get moved or was it always in chat? I thought it was in AIBU.

BorisKilledMyHusband there would have been 73 UKIP MPs instead of 1. From the BBC website 2015 election.

[[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32601281]{

We need a PR voting system and mandatory reelection of each parliamentary candidate on a party level, to wake them both up.

Politicians are, on the whole, poor quality people.

Unfair generalisation. The current party leaders are certainly very poor quality and should return to their day jobs immediately, but the rest of them are just expressions of an MP selection system that's as broken and corrupt as our electoral system.

You need money to be an MP, you need to be able to give up your entire life on the chance of being elected. That rules out a huge number of the high-quality, committed, diverse people we would all like to see representing us. Many MPs (but certainly not the Geoffrey Coxes) are doing their best, working in a broken selection system. Then if they do get elected, they get absolutely no training on how to do a vital part of their job, which is to scrutinise legislation.

Isabel Hardman's book "Why we get the Wrong Politicians" is really informative about this.

Again, British children receive zero political education; this has been the case for decades, and so the British public now has no idea how the system works (or doesn't). The result is this mess. We have to educate ourselves because the Tories are not going to do it for us!!!

We had a referendum on proportional representation pushed by Nick Clegg. It failed miserably.

Fear not anyway, Nigel Farage is talking about making a comeback into mainstream politics
😂😂😂

Pushed by Clegg with Cameron pulling the other way as Tories will be biggest losers from PR. Was doomed to fail, was also pre-Boris. Things have changed, time for another referendum rather than sticking the same plaster back on a festering wound.

*Agreed - it's depressing. As for Labour being "far left" most of the Corbyn manifesto would seem perfectly normal in many European or Scandinavian Countries, but for some odd reason we seem to be determined to follow the USA by being more right wing with each passing year.

There are a lot of people who seem to want Labour to be the Tories - what is the point of that?*

Agree with this 100%, the "right wing is the only way" voice seems to get louder and louder each year.

Another voice saying we need PR, fast. When you look at the numbers it’s appalling how few of us actually voted in this Cabinet of Cunts and yet how much of a majority they have.

Australia has got true democracy. Everybody votes, its against the law not to.

@Flipflopblowout

Australia has got true democracy. Everybody votes, its against the law not to.

Australia hasn't yet found a way to get the queen out of its government business so still has to call itself a constitutional monarchy, which is undemocratic by definition.

It also has voter coercion. Fining people for not voting is a great way to increase voter disengagement and cynicism, or gets them to come up with creative excuses for not voting.

www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-17/these-are-the-ways-people-protest-against-voting-in-australia/11115578

Also it's selective: in Australia voting was made compulsory in 1924 for settlers but the aboriginal peoples did not get the vote until 1965.

I'm not liking Australia as a model for reform.

www.news.com.au/national/federal-election/federal-election-2019-what-happens-if-you-dont-vote/news-story/daa05114821daf73288bf0cd422755eb

www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/25/theme1-voting-history.htm

@Skysblue

Proportional representation makes for weak governments and hung Parliaments. For better or for worse, the first past the post system does work, IF both parties have a basic level of competence and integrity. Unfortunately neither do at present and that is the problem.

No one good goes into politics anymore, because only obnoxious narcissists can cope with the way the British press hound politicians. I’d like to see effective and punitive regulation of the press and social media companies. As long as paparazzi harass politicians at their homes throughout the night, journalists hack phones and email, and psycho-creeps email daily death threats to MPs, the most civilised talented and intelligent people so badly needed as leaders will stay well away from political careers.

Anyway. Labour will only win when they stop being ‘extreme left’ and recognise that a leader leads everyone including the middle and upper class. Want to be leader? Labour need to stop talking class war rhetoric, threatening to close private schools etc, and they need to distance themselves from the extreme woke brigade. I would love to vote Labour, or indeed anyone other than Tory, but I can’t when they blindly recite Stonewall slogans and prioritise the feelings of adult men over the physical safety of female children and women prisoners. The majority of people in this country are female and an awful lot of us will reluctantly vote Tory, despite absolutely despising Boris Johnson, because no other party is prepared to protect single sex spaces and women’s rights. Don’t think this is an election issue? Maybe do a recount of the number of biological women in the country and ask them if they feel free and safe to say that transwomen are not women and should not have access to single sex spaces. Let me know how you get on.

I'm genuinely baffled by all the 'Labour are hard/far left' talk on this thread. I can only assume you weren't around in the 70s and 80s if you think the Labour party we have today is hard left.

@ilovesooty

I can't believe that people are prepared to support this appalling government and vote Tory because gender identity is the only issue they vote on. The tories don't give a fuck about women anyway.

This is the main argument I've noticed on this site as a reason to not vote Labour. Personally, being called a person instead of a woman is less important to me than the fact that people rely on food banks, the massive lack of mental and social care, the fact that the govt didn't want to feed needy children, people being unable to heat their homes, people being unable to buy a home or even rent a decent one at a decent price...there's a lot that is much higher on my list than gender issues. If that is your hill to die on you are oblivious to your privilege.

A good start would be for all election candidates to have proper links to their proposed constituency, i.e. live or work there for 5 years or so, so they would actually represent the constituents in their area backed up by local knowledge etc. Far, far, too many people are "parachuted in" to safe constituencies by the central office (both Lab and Con) who have no knowledge, experience nor interest in the constituency - that's the real issue as such people are more likely to be "career" politicians rather than people genuinely interested in making things better for their constituents.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Like a lot of people, I'm struggling to find anyone to vote for at present. It makes sod all difference to anything, though, as I live in a rock solid Labour constituency and London Borough. There have been times where every single councillor in our borough was Labour. Not sure what the present position is, but there's effectively no opposition at all. In the constituency they could put up a stuffed dummy with a Labour rosette and it would get voted in.

I carry on voting anyway, as I believe it's my civic duty. Women died for me to get the vote. In other countries people are still dying over voting rights. I have to hope eventually my vote will count for something, somewhere. It may have made a marginal difference in the London elections recently where there is PR element.

As for what I am looking for:

Competent, intelligent, sensible and emotionally literate candidates and leadership with varied life experience and backgrounds

Well thought out and costed policies on a range of issues with a good plan prioritising the most urgent things, which for me are health (especially mental health, women's health, health promotion), education, employment rights, affordable housing, support for families, social care for the elderly, disabled and vulnerable, and the environment

AND (I can't believe I have to say this explicitly - a few years ago I would never have thought it possible things would come to this)

They have to know the difference between female and male and why it matters; they have to be prepared to defend women's rights; they have to grasp the importance of safeguarding.

No wonder I'm struggling!

Agree with everything you say. Same here.

Id add crime too to your list.

I think an opposition party would need a comedian for a leader, somebody who made people laugh tbh. Policy, integrity, racism (as long as it's the right kind) misogyny don't matter, as long as they're funny and you think you can have a laugh with them.
Not even joking. Sadly, I think this is the extent of most people political thinking.

"This is the main argument I've noticed on this site as a reason to not vote Labour.
Personally, being called a person instead of a woman is less important to me than the fact that people rely on food banks, the massive lack of mental and social care, the fact that the govt didn't want to feed needy children, people being unable to heat their homes, people being unable to buy a home or even rent a decent one at a decent price...there's a lot that is much higher on my list than gender issues.
If that is your hill to die on you are oblivious to your privilege."

Yup I agree with this as well, some people seem to be totally fine with a lot of institutional neglect as long as some poor translady isnt allowed in their public bathroom :/

Labour needs to figure out what a woman is and why we're leaving the party in out droves.

@StormTreader Convicted male rapists are being placed in women's prisons and psychiatric wards. Women have been raped as a result of these policies.
Maybe if you talked to women and asked what we are protesting, you'd know how bad things are for us right now.