So many kids growing up in the spotlight

[Greentrees2021]

I was pondering tonight how when I was young (80s) there were not a lot of famous kids. It's long been a belief that kids growing up in the public eye have a hard time of things e.g. the Royal kids, child actors etc.
But nowadays I'm starting to feel increasingly uncomfortable about how many children I know from social media and I could tell you infinitely more things about these kids than I ever could have about Macauly Culkin. I wonder if sometimes the parents regret that they started posting about their kids when they were cute babies with the future seeming far away in the distance but now they can't take it back.
For example, the McFly families. It felt like they started posting cute things about their kids as byproducts of their parenting journeys. But now the kids are older, very recognisable and so much of their childhoods have been documented and shared. How do parents undo this? It feels like once you've started down this road, you can't take it back.
I was a very shy child and would have absolutely hated my parents to share things about me with the world. Are we heading to a future with a lot of children who will have been damaged by this?

wheresmyhairytoe that's so awful 😰

@Dragonfire282

SarahAndQuack I really don't think you're understanding who the OP is referring to. We're also talking about the psychological damage this will do to the children which is happening right now, even if Instagram doesn't exist in 20 years, as I said previously the damage is already done.

I think it is common but why would it even matter if it isn't? If its hurting 1 child or a million children it doesn't make it any less wrong.

I should imagine there are as many parents earning money from putting their children on instagram as there ever have been parents earning money from getting their children to do modelling, or acting, or whatever I completely disagree. It's now far easier for people to exploit their children. They can do it from the comfort of their own home home and their children don't need any kind of talent. Another important point is that they're also being viewed on a far greater scale. How many paedophiles would have access to a child pagent/modelling contest? How many paedophiles have access to a child being filmed potty training and put on YouTube? ALL OF THEM

I think I do understand, but I think we're talking cross purposes.

I made the point about how common or uncommon it is in the course of saying that I think exploitative parents have, sadly, always existed. That doesn't mean it's ok at all, but it also proves that it's not social media that is the problem, but rather, exploitative parents, who will take advantage of whatever forum is available to them.

Aside from those people (for whom the problem is nothing to do with social media) I do not believe that children will be psychologically damaged by the sharing of lots of photos, because (as I've said), I think it's become normal and society adapts to cope with norms quite well.

I don't believe it's become any easier for parents to exploit their children. I actually think there's now a whole lot more safeguarding, and this is a good thing.

The argument about paedophiles is a bit like the old paranoia about ordinary snaps. Yes, the man who develops photos in Boots might be a paedophile and he might be getting off on a picture of your six year old naked in the bath ... but it's probably quite unlikely. Unfortunately, given that child porn is much easier to access than it should be, I don't imagine for a moment that paedophiles spend their lives frantically trawling instagram in the hope of catching a glimpse of something dodgy before it's taken down by the mods.

SarahAndQuack

There's alotof advice about safe internet use out there; I have never heard of any credible person, in a position of responsibility for children, who thinks a blanket social media ban is the answer. But I think from the second part of your post, you don't think so either? So I am confused. You said that, when my teachers told us not to post on social media forums, that was 'the right thing to do' and the same as current advice. Now you're saying your child uses some social media forums and they're good you said they advised you not to post on a website called Live Journal. Now I've never been on that website but I would hazard a guess that journalling is a feature. I would give my DS the same advice. I'm more than happy for him to use YouTube and Instagram to watch mountain biking videos. Again, you're comparing 2 very different things.

The YouTube stuff is basically just child exploitation.

The worst are those Toy Channels where kids get recorded every day giving OTT reactions to the newest piece of plastic junk.

I’m really surprised nobody is petitioning for a law against it, as it’s basically adults profiting from child labor.

The fact that they the adults are usually the child’s parents should be neither here nor there.

Obviously YouTube doesn’t give a monkeys about child exploitation, as under 12s are actually a massive audience demographic for them, and the Wow look at this cool Toy! genre is hugely popular.

My mum was actually a freelance journalist who wrote lifestyle pieces for all the main newspapers back in the day, plus serialised contributions to national and local magazines.

I thank the Lord that this was pre digital media. She was very "creative" and saccharine in her descriptions of our childhood.

Because there was relatively little international press, she had fans abroad who visited our area. They actually recognised my sister and I away from our home. We were also harangued in public by strangers who disagreed with some of her views when they read our names in our coat labels.

Just think about how unlikely that all sounds in the pre-digital era, but it happened. Lord help kids for whom it's all right out there.

You're saying that beauty pageants are 'not a thing in these parts' as if, in your world, every mum is rushing to exploit their children on instagram

If you are going to put words into my mouth and make massive assumptions as to my thoughts this is never going to work as a discussion I'm afraid.

@SarahAndQuack
That doesn't mean it's ok at all, but it also proves that it's not social media that is the problem

If social media is a medium which is allowing kids to be exploited - legally, for example by allowing parents to upload daily videos of their 8 year old performing in front of a camera with the latest new toy when he/she should be outside playing with friends or doing ANYTHING that doesn’t involve he/she basically working a part time job of which he/she probably had say in, then social media/YouTube IS the problem.

To be honest though, the problem would be easily solved by YouTube if they just demonetised kids produced content. (I mean contents made BY kids). Won’t happen though as it’s a HUGE market and Google/Yotube cares about the bottom line. And unless the grabby parents get their ad revenue, they’ll stop making Google their videos and hence Google their money.

*had no say in

@Dragonfire282

SarahAndQuack

There's alotof advice about safe internet use out there; I have never heard of any credible person, in a position of responsibility for children, who thinks a blanket social media ban is the answer. But I think from the second part of your post, you don't think so either? So I am confused. You said that, when my teachers told us not to post on social media forums, that was 'the right thing to do' and the same as current advice. Now you're saying your child uses some social media forums and they're good you said they advised you not to post on a website called Live Journal. Now I've never been on that website but I would hazard a guess that journalling is a feature. I would give my DS the same advice. I'm more than happy for him to use YouTube and Instagram to watch mountain biking videos. Again, you're comparing 2 very different things.

So you are in fact saying children shouldn't be allowed to post on the internet at all? Just to look at it?

I think that's really setting your DS up to struggle with life. This is the problem - in the modern world, children need to learn to use the internet, not just passively as a source of videos, but actively. Of course that means it's hard work for parents, but just issuing a blanket ban feels to me like a way to create problems.

@Sparklingbrook

You're saying that beauty pageants are 'not a thing in these parts' as if, in your world, every mum is rushing to exploit their children on instagram

If you are going to put words into my mouth and make massive assumptions as to my thoughts this is never going to work as a discussion I'm afraid.

Huh? I'm not in the least putting words in your mouth.

I'm just pointing out that, if your logic is 'beauty pageants are uncommon therefore they're not like exploitative social media posts on instagram,' then the obvious corollary is that you believe exploitative social media posts are common.

If that's not what you meant, you need to re-think what you're arguing about my comparison of the two things. Either we think exploitative parents are uncommon, but have always found forums in which to treat their children badly, or we think instagram etc. have created a massive wave of exploitative parents who are all over the place.

[quote supermoonrising]@SarahAndQuack
That doesn't mean it's ok at all, but it also proves that it's not social media that is the problem

If social media is a medium which is allowing kids to be exploited - legally, for example by allowing parents to upload daily videos of their 8 year old performing in front of a camera with the latest new toy when he/she should be outside playing with friends or doing ANYTHING that doesn’t involve he/she basically working a part time job of which he/she probably had say in, then social media/YouTube IS the problem.

To be honest though, the problem would be easily solved by YouTube if they just demonetised kids produced content. (I mean contents made BY kids). Won’t happen though as it’s a HUGE market and Google/Yotube cares about the bottom line. And unless the grabby parents get their ad revenue, they’ll stop making Google their videos and hence Google their money.[/quote]
I do think it would be good if youtube would do that (and agree they are unlikely to do so). There could be exclusions for, eg., charity stuff children have done, maybe.

But I really don't think you can blame social media for how some parents act, and I really worry about the way these things are demonised. I notice it happens with things that are quite woman-dominated - instagram is bad, in the same way that people often say mumsnet is bad. So I worry about that. And I also notice that these are forums that also work to connect people, and stop them getting so isolated. Sure, some people will do awful things and we shouldn't condone them, but I really, truly believe they'd find a way to do those things whatever.

SarahAndQuack So you are in fact saying children shouldn't be allowed to post on the internet at all? Just to look at it? what are you on about? That's not what I'm saying at all, please don't put words in my mouth as well as the PP. My DS uses the Internet, he posts things for school etc. The Internet is a fantastic tool when used appropriately. I would not want him to post an online journal.

@Dragonfire282

SarahAndQuack So you are in fact saying children shouldn't be allowed to post on the internet at all? Just to look at it? what are you on about? That's not what I'm saying at all, please don't put words in my mouth as well as the PP. My DS uses the Internet, he posts things for school etc. The Internet is a fantastic tool when used appropriately. I would not want him to post an online journal.

You seem really cross and that wasn't my intention at all!

I just didn't understand what you were saying. I don't, personally, understand the distinction you are making between posting things for school and an online journal - I guess if it's for school it's not accessible to most people? But you can do that with livejournal too. I wonder if this is getting to be an awkward discussion just because you don't know the forum I'm talking about, so you're having to guess a bit how it works. If that's the issue, then please let's leave that aspect out - it really doesn't matter and isn't what interested me in the general discussion, and it's probably very confusing for you!

Huh? I'm not in the least putting words in your mouth.

That's exactly what you did which is why it's impossible to have a discussion with you.

@Sparklingbrook

Huh? I'm not in the least putting words in your mouth.

That's exactly what you did which is why it's impossible to have a discussion with you.

Well, no, I really didn't. I pointed out the tacit premise in your logic, but you got confused and thought I'd said you said something. I did already correct that misreading upthread.

I don't really know what else to say.

we think instagram etc. have created a massive wave of exploitative parents who are all over the place.

That's exactly what social media such as YouTube and Instagram has done. There are now parents all across the world that would never have made the effort to do stuff like modelling or pageant with their kids that are posting and vlogging every single detail of their child's lives online because all they need is the phone in their hand and 5 minutes to make a post. Half the problem is it takes no bloody effort and so these parents don't stop and think for a moment about what they are posting.

@PinkWaferBiscuit

we think instagram etc. have created a massive wave of exploitative parents who are all over the place.

That's exactly what social media such as YouTube and Instagram has done. There are now parents all across the world that would never have made the effort to do stuff like modelling or pageant with their kids that are posting and vlogging every single detail of their child's lives online because all they need is the phone in their hand and 5 minutes to make a post. Half the problem is it takes no bloody effort and so these parents don't stop and think for a moment about what they are posting.

In that case, why is anyone offended and outraged that I asked if they thought there were lots of exploitative instagram parents in their world?

I really don't think the sort of people who have the visibility that's being discussed here - people who are influencers - are putting no effort in. You (and I) might disagree with the ethics of what they're doing if they post all the time about their children, but it clearly is hard work.

A while ago Demi Levato spoke to I believe Drew Barrymore about how the balance of power had completely shifted between Demi and parents, because Demi was the one paying the bills at 17. Parents surrendered adult role and were Demi's dependents.

In recent years the ones that have made me wonder are :

Maisie Williams, Sophie Turner and Millie Bobby Brown.

Millie with acting career, makeup line and other endorsements seems to be her familys main earner and seems adult before her time.

Watching the GOT girls grow up seems like they too, were living in an adult world before they were mature enough, had intense unhealthy fan interest on social and no longer related to their peers.

By contrast, the Harry Potter kids seemed much better protected but that was pre social media.

Working child rules definitely need to change. If parents are earning money from the child's image, the child should be subject to child labour law. The problem is so rampant as to be hard to enforce without a whole department just for that.

A while ago Demi Levato spoke to I believe Drew Barrymore about how the balance of power had completely shifted between Demi and parents, because Demi was the one paying the bills at 17. Parents surrendered adult role and were Demi's dependents.

That amount of pressure must be immense. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to support your parents at such a young age and how odd the family dynamic must be.

I don't really know what else to say.

Me neither. You seem to think I (and others ) are confused but we really aren't.

@Sparklingbrook

I don't really know what else to say.

Me neither. You seem to think I (and others ) are confused but we really aren't.

Ok, if you prefer: you misread what I said, then misquoted it, then told me I'd put words in your mouth (because you'd misread what I actually said).

It's not a big deal, we all misread things sometimes and it's MN, not an exam, so it really doesn't matter. It would be a real shame to detract from what I think is an interesting debate - maybe we can just get back to what the OP was talking about?

Jason Manford posts lots of snaps of him and the kids, but their faces are always blurred out or covered with a huge smiley face.

@Sarahandquack - yes its hard work being an Instagrammer, but it doesn't really need that much cooperation from your dc to exploit them. A few photos or videos taken when your dc is playing is different level of cooperation needed to child models and pageants who need the dcs to 'perform" on queue at the right time for quite a long time. Im not convinced the mummy blogger near us has ever explicitly told her dcs the scale of their lives she is documenting. And once its your job and the family income, how do you say no?

Once these kids grow up, they might find their childhood was documented, unlike being a child model or actor when they knew it was happening at the time. Its the level of private info bloggers and Instagrammers share that I always feel uncomfortable about.

When we discussed the book covering instamums at our book club, it was surprising how many Instagrammers and bloggers about their family lives out group of 15 knew personally. Few will be making huge money out of it, but all were sharing vast amounts of family life info. All posted photos of their dcs who may or may not know they were posing for a public photo not a family snap.

I think there's a big difference between sharing a few random family snaps and totally documenting their baby years and childhoods online whether that be a famous person or not.

Joe public taking a few photos of family trip to the zoo and sharing in a locked down Facebook page to just their friends? I've no problem with that and I can't see how that harms the children any more than us being photographed as children did (albeit those weren't shared online).

Joe public taking photos of babies and children with great frequency, when the children may or may not be appropriately dressed, or ill or where the children may later be embarrassed by it and sharing that? I don't like it and this it's an invasion of privacy when children cannot consent. I have an (ex, because I unfriended) Facebook friend that did exactly that. Child using the potty for the first time, child lying in an oat bath poorly with chicken pox, child in a nappy in a high chair being weaned covered in food. Just why?! Not necessary.

Influencers, celebs, bloggers monetising their children's childhoods? Do not like, will not follow, shouldn't be allowed IMO.