Air source heat pumps - a bit off putting, or is it just me?

[FolornLawn]

I was surprised to see how big and ugly they are.

This article shows a picture of one, and I wouldn't want it in my small garden. Also the report says people will need room for a boiler and a water cylinder.

I'm quite surprised at how negatively I feel about the new plans. There's something about having to remodel bits of my house and garden that feels like an imposition, when I happily recycle, use washable sanitary pads and kitchen roll, go without a tumble dryer etc. Is it just me?

@EsmaCannonball

I just can't get over the fact that if you can afford one of these things the government will give you £5000 towards it, but if you can't afford one you will get no help at all. The same goes for most green initiatives; they're a subsidy to those who can already pay upfront. It's a really insane and illogical way of doing things.

I agree its a middle class subsidy for green consumerism and ideas around district heating might bring broader benefits for the subsidy.

We looked at this and the costs were much higher than we expected. Not just the quote of about 17k for a pump but the additional bills for "upgrading" radiators and the heating system just to work with a pump plus additional insulation needed came to a basic minimum of 25k. We already have good double glazing but have an older solid walled house.

Plus the annual maintenance costs reported by friends with heatpumps, the shortage of technicians to services them. Most of them have additional top-up heating as the heatpump maintains background warmth but in cold weather that wasn't sufficient, one described as as going back to Economy 7 storage heating lifestyle.

5K is a fraction of these costs. If we had a house with less extra costs involved or better reports from people in similar house types I'd still consider it but at the moment I'm waiting for the tech stack to develop and more maintenance skills to be available.

@etulosba the COP is a measure of efficiency just expressed as a ratio or factor rather than a percentage.

You would need either a pressurised tank or an indirect thermal store to have potable/drinkable hot water. Or a combi boiler of course.

the COP is a measure of efficiency just expressed as a ratio or factor rather than a percentage.

I was being pedantic. Strictly speaking, COP is not the same thing as efficiency.

what will happen with listed buildings? We have single glazed windows and no cavity walls. We wanted to put in solar panels a few years ago and were told no as the building is listed!

@FurierTransform

Where people are talking about them being able to cool aswell, they are talking about modern split wall mounted 'aircon' units, which nowdays can both heat and cool. They are essentially the same as an ASHP & just as efficient, but are a fan heater on the wall instead of radiators, and can't do hot water obviously. They kick out a fair amount of heat & are really good.

I've no idea why these have not been mentioned by the government at all - they still provide efficient electric heating, are far far cheaper to buy/fit, can be easily fitted to smaller properties/where a full ASHP is unsuitable, & also obviously have the bonus of being able to keep your well insulated house cool in the summer, where, because their usage generally ties directly with how sunny it is, any environmental impact of using as 'aircon' is pretty much directly offset by high solar production in the summer months.

I have 2 room AC and a 4kw solar PV system, and can have the AC on full on summer sunny days, energy consumption covered entirely by the solar. As the climate is expected to increase in temperature over the next few decades, I think they will become ever more important.

I’m totally clueless about solar systems. Does yours connect into the grid? Or just provide your own home with power?

Your system sounds like what we are looking into getting.

@mushroom3

what will happen with listed buildings? We have single glazed windows and no cavity walls. We wanted to put in solar panels a few years ago and were told no as the building is listed!

This is an issue, it wouldn't work in our old house for many reasons. Including the fact that the council wouldn't allow it!

@mushroom3

what will happen with listed buildings? We have single glazed windows and no cavity walls. We wanted to put in solar panels a few years ago and were told no as the building is listed!

I think there needs to be a big change in policy regarding listed buildings, looking towards a greener future rather than obsessing over creating a living museum.

We have an ASHP in our 1850s Welsh stone crogloft cottage which works really well (contrary to the views of PPs on here who think you have to have a sealed house and get rid of your letterbox in order have an ASHP). However our house is not listed, so it had decent installation put in the roof when the house was renovated from semi derelict 30 years ago, and uPVC double glazed throughout (which we will gradually replace with triple glazing as and when Windows need replacing).

I think you have to consider the overall effect of the environmental impact of the building alterations.

The calculations for heat pumps all assume your home is to be heated to the same temperature all the time. That's something people didn't expect until the seventies.

I remember when I first looked to doing up my house meeting a builder who said "these windows are fantastic, and they'll pay for themselves in two years!". Yeah, right. Like my heating bill for two years is £15k.

You also need to look at the environmental cost of all the materials. The carbon footprint of an old house is effectively nothing. Mine is 160 years old, and people have been living in it ever since. How does that compare to the carbon footprint of building a new house? I'm genuinely curious what the answer is to this.

I consider myself a "green" person. I accept it's mostly stuff I can do without too much hardship, but I buy second hand, avoid buying unecessary "stuff", walk rather than drive when I can, avoid single use plastic, wear a jumper rather than turning up the heating etc, but I'm really bothered by this news.

Not just that I don't want that ugly thing in my garden (I don't) but the prospect of so much upheaval next time I need a new boiler. It sounds like all the radiators need replacing and I have to find somewhere for hot and cold water tanks, plus insulation etc. Which means emptying the loft and redecorating throughout. The thought fills me with dread.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

I think this says a lot about human nature and just how badly the message about the climate crisis is being communicated, that there are whole islands and communities around the world who are being devastated by the impacts of climate change, and we're worried about an unsightly appliance in our garden - it's not a dig at you OP, I totally get the individual reluctance, and I WORK in the environment sector. I think the choice may eventually become easier though, as fossil fuel prices continue to increase. We're fully electric, with our own solar panels, in the aim of insulating ourselves against future price shocks. We have an air source heat pump on our new boiler/tank, which works very efficiently in the loft. However air source is not a viable option for our house heating, as we live in an incredibly leaky & inefficient old building, so any warm air going in would just breeze out again. The costs of exterior insulation and replacing all our windows is prohibitive - around 50K - and I will never get payback on that, so I am not going to do it.

Lol so you have a not having a dig comment about OP worried its unslighlty and dare they cos of the devastating impact its having on other countries...yet you think its then okay to say I'm not doing exterior insulation and windows because I won't grt any payback...oh right thats okay then is it? You won't get payback so it's okay for those countries to be devastated

I won't grt any payback...oh right thats okay then is it? You won't get payback so it's okay for those countries to be devastated

For most people costs running into the tens of thousands mean extending the mortgage. Extending the mortgage for an extension can consider the increased value to the house therefore keeping the percentage mortgage within what is permitted will generally work.

Extending the mortgage by tens of thousands for improvements which add minimal value to the house valuation is simply not an option for most people even if they could afford it and wanted to spend large sums in this way.

We're in a 2017 new build four bed detached. It was £340k (in the North West) from Bloor Homes, a builder which makes lots of claims about the eco-credentials of its homes. To be fair, the insulation is pretty good as these things go, which makes it all the more infuriating that it was built with a bloody gas boiler when a ground source heat pump would have been much, much better and - more to the point - mortgageable rather than funded out of income or savings in one go.

As and when the gas boiler goes we'll obviously have to look at ASHPs, and I wouldn't expect it to be a particularly difficult installation given what's already here. But frankly we deserved better from the planning system than this. It's not as if decarbonising has suddenly appeared out of nowhere and gone "boo". Kyoto was signed in 19-fucking-97. For context, even Portugal still had an Empire then.

What should give more people the willies though are the comments on here from those either not willing or not able to adapt. The great elephant in the room is that large parts of the UK housing stock will effectively become worthless, or at the very least unmortgageable, in the very near future.

The UK has virtually the highest proportion of pre-1945 housing in the whole of Europe (the last figure I saw from about ten years ago suggested it's nearly 40% of the total compared to about 6% in Portugal which never had its urban housing stock flattened by the Luftwaffe). Our fetishisation of period property and obsession with property as an investment rather than as a place to live will return to haunt us in a way that I can only begin to imagine.

Germany currently retrofits about 5% of all its housing stock to Passivhaus standards every year. Every fricking year. Insulate Britain might have a point.

Mine is 160 years old, and people have been living in it ever since. How does that compare to the carbon footprint of building a new house? I'm genuinely curious what the answer is to this.

Good point. Mine is quite a bit older than that and the walls are made from stone and mud. Locally sourced.

I remember when house buying houses with electric storage heaters were a bad deal.

At least gas central heating works and is cost effective

Agree about the comments about redecorating etc if the radiators have to come off the walls etc

the MVHR system...

they still run on electricity, right?
I was reading up on MVHR how do they keep you warm if you don't bathe or cook? How much do you need to bathe or cook in order that the home keeps warm? Is simple respiration enough to create enough heat human body heat-heated homes?

@Otherpeoplesteens

We're in a 2017 new build four bed detached. It was £340k (in the North West) from Bloor Homes, a builder which makes lots of claims about the eco-credentials of its homes. To be fair, the insulation is pretty good as these things go, which makes it all the more infuriating that it was built with a bloody gas boiler when a ground source heat pump would have been much, much better and - more to the point - mortgageable rather than funded out of income or savings in one go.

As and when the gas boiler goes we'll obviously have to look at ASHPs, and I wouldn't expect it to be a particularly difficult installation given what's already here. But frankly we deserved better from the planning system than this. It's not as if decarbonising has suddenly appeared out of nowhere and gone "boo". Kyoto was signed in 19-fucking-97. For context, even Portugal still had an Empire then.

What should give more people the willies though are the comments on here from those either not willing or not able to adapt. The great elephant in the room is that large parts of the UK housing stock will effectively become worthless, or at the very least unmortgageable, in the very near future.

The UK has virtually the highest proportion of pre-1945 housing in the whole of Europe (the last figure I saw from about ten years ago suggested it's nearly 40% of the total compared to about 6% in Portugal which never had its urban housing stock flattened by the Luftwaffe). Our fetishisation of period property and obsession with property as an investment rather than as a place to live will return to haunt us in a way that I can only begin to imagine.

Germany currently retrofits about 5% of all its housing stock to Passivhaus standards every year. Every fricking year. Insulate Britain might have a point.

I don't disagree with some of what you've said but if you don't mind my asking, how much gas do you use to heat your four bedroomed detached home?

How many of you live there, and what's the floor area?

We had an ASHP fitted in the week the Beast from the East hit! It coped with that.

We have a 1960s 4 bed detached house. No underfloor heating. We had an ancient oil boiler which was located in the understairs cupboard so we knew that if we replaced the boiler then we would have to relocate it. That plus the subsidy meant we were better off getting an ASHP

The company we went with were very clear and upfront about additional costs. We had to have 3 new radiators and a new HWC. The total cost of the system plus additional work was £13k. We will get just over £9k back via the subsidy. So we will be £4k out of pocket but a new oil.boiler plus relocating and doing pipework etc would have been at least that.

Our ASHP works really well. It took us a while to work out how to run it efficiently by having it on for long periods rather than for a couple of hours twice a day.

Yes the unit is ugly but no uglier than an oil tank and a lot smaller! We are lucky in that it is fitted to the back of our garage and can't be seen from our garden.

It is quite noisy but we never have it running when we are sitting in the garden - in the summer we set it to come on during the night to heat the hot water. In winter we don't tend to sit in the garden. We sleep with our bedroom windows open all year round and one of the windows is very close to the ASHP unit. It's never woken us up and the next door neighbours have never complained of noise (they are the types who would).

It has never broken down, is serviced every year and has a 25 year guarantee.

I was quite sceptical about them.wgeh DH suggested looking into getting one but now I'm a convert!

@lljkk All homes need to be ventilated and MVHR is an efficient way of doing this, it is not a heating device. MVHR is an alternative to using trickle vents, opening windows, extractor fans etc. to ventilate a building, except the heat is transferred from the outgoing air to the incoming air. Ours is set to change all the air in the house every two hours on standard and every hour on boost.

A person is worth about 100 watts.

Our fetishisation of period property

Valuing history and heritage and appreciating older houses is not ‘fetishisation’. Losing them would be a great shame. You don’t have to demean and devalue to make the point that difficult sacrifices may be needed.

I think there's going to be some difficult conversations to be had about period property. Is it really that important to leave the full roof tiled rather than solar panels on part of it, or to keep the old single glazed windows vs new double glazed (of the same material and style, not suggesting upvc) for example? I don't think it is. There has to be a balance, especially in areas where listed/conservation areas are a huge part of the housing stock.

Our old house drove me nuts with this - it was a mews which we did a garage conversion on. The garage had the same structure as the rest of the house but because we were making a non habitable space in to a room we were required to ho for full modern insulation. Floor, ceiling, walls, double glazer frontage. We lost nearly 1.5ft of width and length due to it but the funny bit was they still were really restrictive about the rest of the house. The end result was a property that was a pain to heat - there was about a 6 to 8 degree difference in the natural room temperatures so you'd have the heat blasting upstaira but radiatorals off and windows open downstairs.

I'm not sure if the recommended insulation for an ASHP in a similar property would be similar to that - it certainly works well but if it is then you are talking a full renovation. And a lot of space lost. It's a big ask.

I'm not sure if the recommended insulation for an ASHP in a similar property would be similar to that - it certainly works well but if it is then you are talking a full renovation. And a lot of space lost. It's a big ask.

In our 1850s stone cottage (semi detached) with bedrooms in the attic it had roof insulation put in when it was re-roofed 30 years ago to a really good standard. We have no wall insulation, just meter thick Welsh granite (which for the EPC is considered as having no insulation properties but I think has a reasonable effect at storing heat). We have uPVC double glazingb throughout ( including 3 veluxes) we will gradually upgrade to triple glazed focusing particularly in the veluxes. We are also planning on getting the end wall externally insulated but this is due to serious damp issues rather than efficiency.

The pre existing insulation we had was considered fine for our ASHP installation.

I think what people who don't have a pressing need for an ASHP (ie oil boiler catastrophically breaking down during lockdown) should do is focus on really insulated their homes as much as possible in preparation for the move to greener heating.

@RIPWalter triple glazing isn't necessarily more effective than double. There various coatings, edge spacers and gases that can do just as much.

[quote Daftasabroom]@RIPWalter triple glazing isn't necessarily more effective than double. There various coatings, edge spacers and gases that can do just as much.[/quote]
Yes, it'll be veluxes highest rated glass (acoustic glass I think) whether that is triple glaze or not I'm not sure.

We are no even allowed solar panels (conservation area) and I support that. I would rather we kept things as they are even if humans die off the planet a bit sooner, than make all these awful changes. We waste 1 trillion pounds in the UK if we do all this and the rest of the world does not (a very very likely scenario).

My biggest issue with them is that you need to have a hot water tank.

I hate these with a passion as the water is either not hot when you need it (as some buggers used it all just as you want a bath, which usually you only realise half way through filling said bath ) or you heat it when you don't need it.

I've not long had our leaking hot water tank taken out and replaced with a combi so we no longer have a hot water tank and I'm intending to turn the space where one was into a much needed cupboard.

I do NOT want a hot water tank back under any circumstances.