Is it sustainable to be idealistic/not be concerned about money (when you have none)

[onlychildhamster]

DH and I were talking about his younger sister who is going to israel for an internship trip. She has an arts degree and only wants to do 'creative jobs' (marketing roles in the creative seçtor) which don't involve Excel/Microsoft suite. DH (who works in an investment bank so probably not an expert on creative jobs to be fair) tried to tell her most jobs nowadays would require some knowledge of excel. She said that his job was too 'admin' and wouldn't suit her and she was terrified of 'falling and being trapped in such a job'. I am a bit perplexed at this, as from my viewpoint, a job would be an improvement. I mean, currently she is on UC and earns so little from freelance tutoring that she doesn't pay NI. This is quite understandable as she just graduated during a pandemic so it is very hard. I am in my 20s so I can clearly remember being a fresh graduate as it wasn't that long ago

But when I was her age, I was so terrified of being jobless that I wouldn't have written off any 'serious job' because it wasn't my ideal job. I studied law but wasn't fixed on being a lawyer so applied for jobs in finance. I was scared I would not be able to afford London rent in the long term if I didn't buy my flat so I stayed with in laws for 3 years so we could buy our flat. I even postponed our wedding for years so that we could buy our flat and we only managed to do so in 2019. The fear of not being able to afford to live seems to be the main motivator for many of my decisions even if we are objectively fairly ok finances wise. I think it's because I come from a country where there isn't a welfare state so my first thought is always - how can I afford this and if not, what can I do to afford it (whether now or in the future).

But maybe I got it all wrong. My SIL never worries about how to earn money to afford things (she just tried to find the cheapest room and the cheapest food; and then applies for benefits and grants). And it all kind of works out. I mean her lifestyle is very simple but it's not terrible either, she has enough food and clothes and yes she can't go shopping the way I do but that's not the end of the world. I fear having no money because I automatically associate it with movies like ' I Daniel blake' etc but this isn't her reality. She and my DH are from a poor family, her mum lived this way too but had some help from family which she wouldn't have.

I just wonder if she can live like this forever which would be positive for her as she can then do the jobs she wants and focus on her passions rather than worry about bread and butter issues. And if she can do so, why are we worrying so much about bread and butter/cos of living issues (judging by the number of threads on Mumsnet)? Her mum had 4 kids and has a similar mentality/lifestyle/low earnings and has scraped through thus far (not sure how much of it is due to family help) so this isn't an issue of pre children life Vs 20s life.

Your SIL is likely going to face the harsh reality of her choices some day. I would make sure that your DH is not planning to be her safety net.

@DriftingBlue but she is already on UC? What is worse than being on UC? She has a family home to go back to so would never be homeless.

I work in comms and i very rarely touch a spreadsheet, i have a finance business partner who helps with my budget too.

At the end of the day, if she can afford her lifestyle then just let her live her life. It only becomes a problem if shes asking you for money.

@Lemonlemon88 of course she is an adult who can decide her life and priorities! I was just musing that maybe I am very blinkered thinking about financial security as the be all and end all. When she is managing fine not even really considering it.

My DH has bought her stuff like laptop and phone, and has given her birthday money of a few hundred pounds. But nothing big.

Depends on the type of person very much I think.
If a person has simple needs and an imaginative approach to life with the ability to seek out opportunities it can work out fine.
I do think it also depends on luck - not necessarily good luck, but not having a huge dose of bad luck.

Neither is wrong. You're just different people. For you to live as she does would cause crippling stress that would probably make you ill. For her to be in a job she detests that's so far from her personality would likely cause her crippling stress and make her ill. She's being sensible. If she became long term sick maybe she'd be a bigger drain on society financially than she is now? She's obviously used to being poor and it doesn't seem to bother her the way it would some people. There's nothing wrong with a simple frugal life if its not going to stress you (or if it's all you can manage, not everyone is cut out for the stress levels of a proper career). Not everyone has ambition to climb the ladder, money was your motivating factor, it's not hers. There's nothing wrong with the way you live either, don't be envious of her, you've created what you needed - a home in your chosen (expensive) town and the freedom to not worry about money too much, to have a more lavish lifestyle which you obviously enjoy. Someone with your mindset wouldn't have been happy poor. You also fit with the person who you fell in love with, he doesn't sound like he'd be happy poor either, so if you'd gone down that road you'd not have been a match.

@FluffyWhiteBird that's a great response, thank you. I think I was just doubting myself cos I spent a lot of time during the pandemic with DH's family and we felt like the odd ones!

I have a friend like this. Her lifestyle is only sustainable because she claims various benefits.
So, she thinks she is self sustaining but actually it's me, the tax payer, who is funding her choice of lifestyle. She could work in a more lucrative role but chooses not to.

My DH has bought her stuff like laptop and phone, and has given her birthday money of a few hundred pounds. But nothing big

That sounds incredibly generous, far from 'nothing big' at all. Between UC, being able to stay with her DM so no rent, bills etc and her DB paying for her tech and giving her money then there's obviously a lot less pressure on her than most to support herself. If she's happy with a fairly simple life and not having her own place, she's probably perfectly happy with her lot.

However it's unlikely she'll be able to receive UC long term, especially as a young single person with no DC. There will be the constant pressure for her to earn more so she isn't entitled to it, and as a freelancer, it will be assumed that she does earn a full time wage after a couple of years and her UC will be reduced accordingly, even if she still earns not very much.

But it is likely she's going to use some sort of software packages in marketing, to produce written material, along with photo and video editing etc.

@FluffyWhiteBird DH is very stressed in his role now but I think he would be far more stressed without a job! During his gap year before uni, his mum suggested he should go on benefits. He freaked out and immediately got a job the next day as an assistant in a FE college. This was as an 18 year old living at home with no wife, no responsibilities, no expectations; what more as an adult with a mortgage and a master's degree and student loan debt. His sister went on benefits and wasn't too bothered.

Plus excel will be useful for keeping her accounts and there's the push towards digital records in a certain format in the near future.

@BarbaraofSeville she gets the housing element of UC too. She doesn't live in London but up north as that is where the university is. What I meant was she could always come back to London if UC stopped covering the rent. Of course during her course, the rent was covered by student loan and maintenance grant. She did her master's part time and was meant to work to support herself- unfortunately the council tax (which she had to pay as part time students are not given council tax exemption) seemed to have chipped away at any earnings.

I didn't know that about UC. When would they reduce her entitlement. It might explain why she is going on this internship trip (where she will get max grant) if they will cut down on her entitlement, my DH was a bit perplexed about it because in his mind the internship trip is a bit of a holiday but I think that is a bit uncharitable as I have read about people who have gotten permanent jobs out of it.

She's very young and possibly still quite naive about potential financial hardships she may face later on.

Being on UC is not fun, but it is true that some people just don't prioritise money as much as their passion. This is often the case in creative industries which rarely pay well, and it is difficult as a creative to balance your passion with the pracitcalities of life.

I know a lot of people who are extremely talented but are on UC because their work is just not well paid or reliable/ regular enough to provide a full time income.

We need artists and creatives and if we as a society are going to be so reluctant to pay them what they are worth, then I am happy for a portion of my income tax to go towards keeping them in bread and butter.

[quote onlychildhamster]@Lemonlemon88 of course she is an adult who can decide her life and priorities! I was just musing that maybe I am very blinkered thinking about financial security as the be all and end all. When she is managing fine not even really considering it.

My DH has bought her stuff like laptop and phone, and has given her birthday money of a few hundred pounds. But nothing big.[/quote]
I think again it's just different priorities and outlook.

She's managing fine just now, but she may pay a price later down the line when she is landed with an unexpected cost e.g. a boiler breaking or something.

There are pros and cons to every way of living life.

You have prioritised financial security, and your sacrifice for that is the hours and effort that you have to put into working for it in a job that you may not love. In return, you won't have to worry when your boiler breaks down.

She's prioritising her passion - she will get to do what she loves, but her sacrifice is that she will be dependent on the state financially, and may have some shaky situations in future because of it.

[quote onlychildhamster]@Lemonlemon88 of course she is an adult who can decide her life and priorities! I was just musing that maybe I am very blinkered thinking about financial security as the be all and end all. When she is managing fine not even really considering it.

My DH has bought her stuff like laptop and phone, and has given her birthday money of a few hundred pounds. But nothing big.[/quote]
I do think, trying to be honest but not too harsh, you sound very blinkered, yes.

People are all different.

Overall you should try to focus on what you want and let her get on with her own life.

We need artists and creatives and if we as a society are going to be so reluctant to pay them what they are worth, then I am happy for a portion of my income tax to go towards keeping them in bread and butter.
But is she worth our income tax? It sounds as though she's cherry-picking the parts of society that suit her without taking any responsibility for herself or others less fortunate. To be content to live on UC sets the bar pretty low and, if I was the OP, I'd be glad she was trotting off to foreign fields and hoping it would give her head a wobble.

Look honestly. It might just be that she doesn't want her big brother to keep telling her what she needs to do, or learn to get on. She might have her own plans and simply does not want to share them in order to meet with approval. I've been there and have tried to shut down conversation politely by simply not engaging.

Your DH (and you!) sound loving and concerned and very mature but you might need to back off and let her live ehr life and learn her own lessons along the way.

She’ll struggle to avoid Excel completely, even creatives need to plan their work…

Like others have said, we are all different. I like the meet in the middle way. Earning enough for essentials and the odd outing and yearly holiday, and a bit of back up savings, meaning working full time but not in a stressful job. I think from what you’ve said her family will support her if needed. She’ll know that. And if her wants and needs in life are quite basic, she’ll manage through it.

She's in her 20s and sounds like she is doing fine to me. Possibly because of house prices not enough young people seem to be experiencing a carefree life before they settle down these days.
In my early 20s I had a sensible boring job. I chucked it in and went travelling all over the world, partied, had creative jobs, enough money to scrape by on.
By my early 30s I had a good, but not boring, job, my own home, savings and pension. Been going abroad but with more luxury and enjoying myself ever since.
Those experiences made me independent and able to take a few calculated risks which means I can now afford to retire comfortably in my early 50s.
Perhaps she's not interested in shopping "like you"!

You talk about fear and being terrified, that shouldn't be your main driving force at that age imo.

I've always been a bit fascinated and horrified by people who follow their passion and don't think about financial practicalities. When I was a young child I was creative, but I entered a very sensible career as I worried about not being able to pay the bills.

Now I have a good earning power but don't work many hours, as the sensible career has given me the choice to work very part-time. Partly as I want to spend time with my young kids, but also I find my job very stressful, and I would really struggle if I had to do it full time.

I've known some people who have followed their passions and had creative careers, and I am fascinated that they don't seem to worry about money in the same way I do. Or maybe they do, but they put their worries aside as they see doing what they love as more important.

One observation is that if they have children, they have found the finances and lack of flexibility a lot more challenging, and often couldn't return to their creative career after having a baby due to their low pay and the need to be fully flexible (with lots of competition for their jobs).

However I'm probably also a bit envious at their confidence in throwing caution to the wind. I do feel my fear at being poor and stuck in a bad situation has held me back from making more adventurous decisions that might have paid off.

We recently moved to a more affluent area for better schools, and I'm trying to resist the urge to 'keep up with the Jones'' and need to earn more. It is important to know what you need in life to be happy, and not just have an urge to accumulate more and more.

So I'm trying to balance giving myself options in life by having a sensible career, and not being drawn into the endless desire to earn and accumulate more. When my children are older perhaps I'll make some slightly more adventurous decisions.

I'm not sure what the best answer is. One thing is I hope your SIL is being realistic. The general direction is that the cost of living is going up, and the country's desire to pay benefits going down. She may have less of a safety net than she assumes - for example when her parents pass away she won't have the option of living with them. Although maybe that's my worrying head talking there.

So let me get this straight. You compromised your freedom, excitement and life-experience to tie yourself to an investment banker (what a coincidence) and lived with his family for YEARS - and obviously now should you have children, you’ve got a meal ticket for life - for money.

She’s doing a job she loves, is travelling and loving her life.

And you’re looking down on HER?

I did two very different degrees combined so half friends went into finance and other creative

Yes she can be happy but will probably need more than she’s earning now

She may well avoid excel as a creative and do things she enjoys more. It’s better when you get paid too so hopefully she can work that out

I'm with you on the job/financial security aspect OP. I think your SIL is ok to be doing what she's doing for now, but long term it probably isn't really going to work for her, or those around her. She may claim she is, but she isn't really self sufficient as she already relies on benefits and grants to get by, and knows the system well enough to be able to use it to her advantage, which it allows people to do so not really a criticism, but think that her efforts would be better used getting her standing on her own two feet.

I think this is the age old thing of doing what you love following your heart, happiness etc being the most important things, when the reality is sometimes we have to do things you don't enjoy, like a less than ideal job, in order to survive.
I think those that advocate that kind of lifestyle are choosing to ignore the support they have to have in order to maintain it. It isn't sustainable long term, especially when partners and kids come into the picture. Everyone I know who had this philosophy on life in their twenties ended up on benefits long term, unhappy and scraping to get by, or marrying someone who could support them.

By the way, though it's your DPs money to spend as he wishes, buying your adult sister a laptop, phone and giving her hundreds of pounds on her birthday isn't really 'normal'. I suspect it's a matter of time before she's asking for handouts as she knows he can afford it because of these generous gifts.