Is Chivalry dead , or do you not want it ?

[Frostine]

I was in Dobies Garden Centre today to buy autumn plants for my pots . I decided to have a cup of tea in the cafe . As I was sat at my table and having a look about at people I saw a couple arrive who were 70+ . They both looked quite fit & healthy , he helped her off with her coat and put it nicely on the chair behind her , then he poured the tea , and unfolded her napkin and passed it to her . It just seemed so gentlemanly and usual and I had a pang that I don't get treated like that .
Would that get on your nerves or would you secretly like that ?

@Libertaire I am
Not physically equal to most men no, men are generally faster than women, stronger ,of course there are exceptions but we are not equal in certain things genetically, hence why many women are against biological men competing in womens sports etc
I would give up my seat as a women to a pregnant women or older person or say someone on crutches etc as they are likely more in need than me
If they decline then thats fine too

This may seem like not the thing to say.

When I was Pg and had perinatal anxiety and depression that wasn't identified at the time.

I felt unable to ask for a seat etc. And I was in a bad way with anxiety so much even though tried to hide it, it was obvious things weren't right to anyone who looked.

Those who helped me- by saying with no prompting can anyone give her a seat, standing immediately if they had one, once stopping a car to ask if I was ok when having a panic attack, helping me up when I tripped, that sort of thing.

There was one nun.
Loads of black men and women including young/ teens. Most often blokes. In front of their mates!
Also other minority groups more men.
White was women. Generally older and I suppose know how it feels?
Journey into canary wharf in rush hour. Suited booted well paid often young. Never.

When I was having a panic attack by the side of the road it was a black woman who parked her car up the road and walked back to see if I was ok.

I don't know how this post will go down.

Chivalry towards certain people. Ladies in your workplace etc.

Is just nothing in the face of generally looking out for others. Whoever and wherever you come across someone who seems to be struggling.

And IME (as a person from London lots of diversity) it's the white men with the good jobs who do all their doors etc at work. That are the last people to do anything otherwise.

This is just my experience and where I live.

I am sure in places less crowded and smaller that it's totally different and white men etc will help happily. In fact I know it.

But when it's so many strangers, you'll never see again, trying to get a space/ seat/ modicum of comfort. IME it's very stark the way it seems to go.

There's a big difference between being considerate and mannerly and being chivalrous.
Chivalrous is performing being kind to women because they are wee and weak and silly. It's a way to break down a woman's personal space and make her feel crap for objecting. Its getting a woman used to saying 'No thank you' and it being disregarded. All very useful to the predatory patriarch.

On the other hand manners and kindly consideration are lovely.

My partner does this with me and its the first time anyone's really treated me like that in a relationship. Love speaks through actions and it's his way of showing his care consistently throughout the day. I think it's wonderful.

In real life, we both work and split bills equally, put money in each other's accounts if the other is struggling or wants a treat, childcare is split equal efforts and whoever is up first in the morning will make sure the other has a coffee in their hands

My father used to be like that but made such a 'look at me aren't I wonderful' fuss about it it really pissed me off. Quiet consideration is one thing (for both sexes) - performance chivalry is quite another.

I love good manners so agree with posters that doors should be held open for anyone and everyone.

As a child in the very early 1970’s there was a very old chap who was a WWl veteran who always tipped his hat to my Mother. He alway wore a pocket watch which he showed us and took time to be pleasant to everyone. I have very fond memories of him. He must have been born around 1890.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

What is the road one about, is it simply sacrificing themselves to be smacked by an errant wing mirror instead of the woman?

I thought it was completely daft nowadays until yesterday, when some bloke nearly shoved me onto a railway line - accidentally, walking sort of diagonally from behind - pretty sure he'd not have been so oblivious of DH in the same way if he'd been in the outer position.

I would like considerate behaviour to other humans across the board.

What really isn’t pleasant is when ‘ladies first’ men try and usher or steer you, it tips over into an outright display of dominance.

It's also unpleasant when people make stupid comments based on their perceptions of correct roles. I was once carrying a sack of bird food to the car, DH walking unencumbered beside me. A couple coming the other way started with inane 'ooh, you should be carrying that'. Well, no. I may be a 5'1" middle aged woman but I'm perfectly fit; at the time he was awaiting a procedure for a heart problem and could walk ok on the flat but nothing more.

I would like it. I've been alone a long time now and it would lovely to feel looked after and cared for.
To me it's not about them thinking you're incapable so much as showing they can and want to look after you as their partner. Women have their traditional ways of showing the same back to their male partner.

Chivalry is garbage IMO. Kindness and consideration are great, but I don’t think men should only aim it at women.

I try and be kind and polite to others no matter what. Chivalry tends to come with ridiculous strings attached.

I remember being in college and a male classmate literally refused to walk through a door I was holding open for him. A guy who had a crush on me insisted on holding my bag when I repeatedly said I would rather hold it myself. My ex made a big show of ordering champagne on our first anniversary dinner- knowing I hate champagne.
Chivalry tends to be all about how it looks from the outside, not what the person receiving it would actually want. And that’s what I think is garbage.

Just be a good person.

Women have their traditional ways of showing the same back to their male partner.

What are you thinking of? A steak and a blow job?

Haha dh and I were on a very wet and windy walk this morning and we noticed a man holding an umbrella for his partner. I said to dh “ahh, that’s sweet and very chivalrous” - he replied “he’s a mug, he’ll learn!” - we did laugh! Bloody pig
He’s not very gentlemanly though, to be fair we’re both kind to each other, I’d hold the door open for him and vice versa, just depends on whoever’s going through it first.
I think the situation in the op is probably generational, I don’t see many younger people doing this. Just an observation though; perhaps they do and I just miss it!

You see if I struggling with a suitcase and a man helps me, that's not chivalry its just being helpful. I need help so you offer it. That's fine

If DP pours the tea for me that's because I am his DP and he wants to be kind to me, not because I am a woman. I equally will do lots of caring things for DP, we care for each other equally.

Chivalry is when it's aimed at you because you are a woman. And is offered regardless of if you need help or want it. It is a display of dominance. It irks back to the days of 'you are a weak woman and couldn't possibly hold open your own car door, but mysteriously can scrub the floors. You can't hold your suitcase but you can carry a load of washing.' It's not being helpful or respectful or polite.

I don't want someone helping me all the time, a romantic dinner where he pours the wine and holds my chair okay, but not every day. I don't need doors opened for me, I've never found a door I couldn't open. If you are going through first fine hold it, but as long as when I go first I hold it for you. If I genuinely can't carry something because its heavy fine, but of you assume I can't carry it because I'm a woman then no.

An older man I am happy to give a pass for chivalrous behaviour, there is something quite lovely about a proper gentleman in his 80s/90s But I want that behaviour to slowly die out, it's from a different time.

@foxgoosefinch

Being courteous doesn’t need to be gendered! I open doors for people and do things for them and it isn’t because they’re a man or a woman, it’s just being well mannered. Sometimes you look after others, sometimes they look after you!

This. I prefer 'consideration' or 'courtesy,' to chivalry. e.g I'm female but I hold doors open for anyone coming behind me. I've given my gran my coat to wear when we were out, would offer my seat to anyone (elderly, disabled, pregnant etc.) who looked like they might need it more. If everyone just treated each other with basic respect and kindness you wouldn't need to have all these worries about if someone would be offended by anything or if their pride would be hurt etc.

I would hate being treated in the way you witnessed, short of having a medical issue that made it necessary. It's extremely infantilising.

Like other posters, I much prefer ungendered common courtesy. I'm perfectly capable of holding open a door, carrying a shopping bag, taking a bag out of overhead storage and many other things. If I'm struggling with something it's great when someone helps, ditto I will stop and help if I see someone struggling.

From my past dating experience, the men who acted like this definintely preferred more gendered relationships. That wouldn't have suited me in the slightest!

I think sometimes things can be ok coming from a much older generation, it's almost like they grew up in a different culture and you can be understanding of that like you would of someone from a different country. You know this is what they were taught is good manners growing up, so it seems fine they go on with it as long as it is not a problem for anyone. It's like raising your hat, we know this was considered polite years ago but it would seem strange if a young person did this, whereas if I met a very old gentleman in a old fashioned hat it would seem like a nice old tradition.

Times have changed and I would expect a man who was my contemporary to have good manners in the modern way.

I like it but I’ve always been weaker than peers and have poor coordination so sometimes I actually do need the help. Not having to show my weaknesses is nice. I don’t think manners should be restricted to women though and I do these things for others when I can. I don’t like the power play aspect or anything that suggests a lack of mental abilities.

Saying that, despite my strong feminist instincts, I do enjoy feeling like a queen and have always wished I could find a true Southern gentleman with old fashioned manners towards women.

Kindness is great, it just doesn't need to depend on whether I have a willy or a vag.

My dp does small kind things for me, and I do for him. Neither of us would do something like fold a napkin for the other as we are clearly both capable of doing it for ourselves.

There's a boundary between kindness and care, and an implication of not being capable that needs to be carefully noted. Folding a napkin is probably OK, ordering a meal for someone probably not.

I met one of my work team for the first time a couple of weeks ago in person (been working remotely for last year). I was unfamiliar with the office as he works in a different part of the country to me, so we arranged for him to meet me outside my hotel, next door to the office. I was very surprised when he immediately took my case from me, insisted on holding every door open for me and pulling out the office chair at the desk I had been allocated.

I couldn't decide whether he was doing it to impress me as his manager, or because it was his usual practice with women. On reflection, I think it is normal for him, we went to the pub for lunch and he kept referring to me as "the lady" to the bar staff. Completely different to his "in work" persona.

@PurpleDaisies
Women have their traditional ways of showing the same back to their male partner.

What are you thinking of? A steak and a blow job?

Chavalry! Are there any other traditional ways?

This sort of behaviour from a partner is lovely and considerate. From strangers it is infantilising and weird. The older I get the more on the receiving end of this chivalry I find myself in, being offered to go on the bus first, insisting on opening doors and offering to help carry a coffee order. I am in my late thirties and enjoy not needing help with these things.