Is Chivalry dead , or do you not want it ?

[Frostine]

I was in Dobies Garden Centre today to buy autumn plants for my pots . I decided to have a cup of tea in the cafe . As I was sat at my table and having a look about at people I saw a couple arrive who were 70+ . They both looked quite fit & healthy , he helped her off with her coat and put it nicely on the chair behind her , then he poured the tea , and unfolded her napkin and passed it to her . It just seemed so gentlemanly and usual and I had a pang that I don't get treated like that .
Would that get on your nerves or would you secretly like that ?

I prefer mutual respect, courtesy and kindness.
Chivalry stems from a mindset about women that has no relevance to me.

The coat thing makes me think of dh's aunt. She can't lift her arms above her head any more, so she'd probably be pretty happy to be helped with her coat. Just because someone looks fit and well, doesn't mean they are.

A man pouring the tea! How avant-garde!

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

What is the road one about, is it simply sacrificing themselves to be smacked by an errant wing mirror instead of the woman?

It goes back to a time before cars - and pavements - when you had horses on the roads. And thier shit too, obviously. Lots of it. I'd rather walk through shit instead of a woman I'm walking with and I still do the road thing myself even though it's not relevant anymore.

My dad does this for my mum. She looks healthy, but has some arthritis and can't manage those tasks without help. I would suspect that rather than any idea of chivalry, because pouring tea is not usually something associated with chivalry. It would normally be a task the woman did in a very traditional couple.
I find, and I was probably the same, that a lot of young adults don't have any real understanding of the common old age ailments and their affects.

I want to be treated like a queen

I think there’s a massive difference between your husband of fifty years doting on you, and some random man being “chivalrous” because you’re a laydee.

I’ve experienced random men diving across the room to open doors (which they weren’t going through themselves), moving my chair for me, and various other things that just came across as weird and show-offy. I mean, don’t slam a door in my face, but I can open it myself if I’m the first one going through it.

DH would be more than welcome to run around after me. Although he doesn’t, unless I’m ill or something.

@MadMadMadamMim

I do like it. DH is a bit like this - although I think I'd probably pour the tea rather than him. He certainly opens doors, carries shopping, walks on the road side of me, etc. We are older though - DH is 63 and I'm late 50s.

I think it was just the way he was brought up and my father behaved like this too. I'm the main breadwinner in the family and in a professional career, but I don't feel belittled.

It's just old fashioned manners to me.

Pretty much exactly the same for me but just turned 50 and he's 55. Wouldn't have it any other way. Interestingly enough I do all the same things for my elderly mum now. Just general respect I think.

Great to garner varied thoughts . I enjoyed watching it and it was nice to see it doesn't happen to me and never has

Personally I don't mind it if I know them and they're nice.

Thank you OP for defining as well. Lots of different ideas about what chivalry is!

In couples yes obviously why not. DH always holds door and I go first. I have said he does that don't think he realises! I mean even as a crazed long term feminazi I find it a bit odd but if he wants to then he can have at it!

What I have always really hated is when it's at work. And yes it's because I want to be seen as a person first at work. Not oh look a woman right got that. Change language, remember diversity training, look serious when she talks. Oh there's no pens and paper in this room! She'll probably know what to do about that.

On doors.

I have always disliked having door held by man and ushered through. Ditto being ushered in to lift first or expected to leave lift first. I mean they don't do ladies first when it's a rush hour tube I can guarantee. So it's performative.

Anyway never knew why I didn't like it. Just didn't.

In late 30s had a chat with female colleague about the time it was hideous when the top bloke in the big org and a very senior bloke. Were approaching doors at same time.

They took one each and opened them both and looked expectantly. I naturally went into socialised female mode and did as expected. Sort of chirpily pranced though complete with sing song 'thank you' and then a little giggle.

FML. But to just walk through without I suppose, acknowledging their chivalry in the appropriate manner was just, I mean I couldn't could I. Mild smile thanks. Ooh she's rude isn't she.

The problem with chivalry is that, too often, the second you say "actually I don't want that" rage comes out.

Exactly this.

So I told to my friend as I felt like it was just, embarrassing and I didn't like it.

She said oh yeah well obviously it's a power play. Really? Oh yes

So being a bit of an arse I did a little experiment

I would say no after you! At the lift. Most went. Some did a couple of after you back and forth and went.

Some would not. Literally would not go in before me.

After you!
No after you!
I couldn't possibly!
It's really no trouble, after you!
Etc.
In the end I folded otherwise the lift would go!

Getting out once I tried it and a man I worked with who was a racist sexist arse. Said. I cannot get out before a lady. You must go first.
!

I mean it was only occasionally over a long period of time. Not like hammering it.

In the lift once I was looking at phone and in back corner. Got to bottom floor. Felt eyes on me. Continued deeply engrossed in phone. No one moved. Doors closed we went up again!

I mean what?

When I didn't play my part and was cheerfully insistently chivalrous back, or didn't behave as required and expected.

I'd say about 5% flatly refused to do the thing they were insisting I do.

Fascinating. Power play. Woman expected to play certain role.

Now I know doors are a long term feminists are ridiculous thing. And I know that not liking it is seen by most as trivial pointless making a fuss over nothing etc.

And often deliberately taken to mean holding door to pass to person behind you which everyone should do.

But anyway. I found my little experiment enlightening!

I think she probably needed the help, I have mobility problems but would look fine walking into a cafe and sitting down.
I can manage my coat and pouring tea now, but there have been times when I couldn't and the people with me would have had to help.
When I don't need the help I find it suffocating, it always takes longer if your waiting for other people to do things for you.

@Youcancallmeval

My father is like that. He passes behind me to walk next to the road and stands when a lady enters the room. He struggles if he's on public transport and sees a woman standing, even though he's in his 70s and she may be completely able and in her 30s, always wanting to offer his seat. When we have discussed that this may be seen as outmoded, he gets upset as he has always prided himself on being polite and trying to do the right thing. He may be a dinosaur, or he may be chivalrous, but when he is gone, one of the things I will always remember about my daddy is how beautifully he treated all women.

On the public transport thing.

I was on a train once and as soon as the seats were nearly all taken he just stood up.

I'm sure it was because he didn't need it and he didn't want to have to think offer or not etc.

It was a commuter train 30 mins btw not London to Edinburgh or similar!

Not suggesting that should be standard. I just noticed and thought gosh blimey that's one way to handle it.

It would be a bit wasted on me. My DH is always telling me off for walking past the waiter as he pulls out a chair for me to the other side of the table.

He always tries to get my order into Just Eat etc for me, and it annoys me because unless I do the whole of a task for myself I'm liable to forget parts of it.

Plus there's a definite element of cherry picking IMO. The actual things I'd like him to do go by the wayside

Agree with pp that it should be about who looks like they could do with a hand.

Heavy door, heavy bag. Woman young and fit. Old chap who doesn't have great balance and is not very strong should do it?

Nope.

Man or woman with pushchair hold door and usher through?

Yep.

Etc.

Fun fact. Holding door and ushering comes from the days when there were massive heavy wooden doors about and women were corseted.

Men tended to be able to do it much more easily.

I've come across doors like that in old buildings in the city and fuck me. I'm small. Really just too heavy for me to shift even an inch and that's full on hauling back into it!

It's about need.

If you see someone doing or about to do something you suspect will be tricky or challenging. Then you just do it if you can (pick up something someone v elderly dropped and give it back) or others can and should for you if you can (someone struggling with a door that weighs 3 tonnes).

And it should be done because it's the right thing to do. Not as this kind of performance when unnecessary.
(People you love etc different matter!).

I'm always at it, DH finds it strange. If I see someone looking very lost and it's somewhere I know, if someone in the lift is baffled how to work it, that sort of thing, I automatically spring into action!).

DH finds it very embarrassing but accepts it's what I do. And I accept he holds doors and ushers me through! So all is well )

My dad does helping in and out of coats and always has done.

He includes my bro, and DH who is about a foot taller than him as well

I have many, many faults, but I can honestly say that hypocrisy is not one of them. I expect to be treated as an equal by men in all situations and all settings. The idea that i would expect to be treated as an equal at work, then want to be patronised by a man giving up his seat for me, or making a performative show of carrying something for me is ridiculous. Some women seem to want to have it both ways. Their double standards do us all a disservice.

We are either equal to men or we’re not. I am.

Thing is that for the men it's entirely performative.

Rather than reacting to a situation they see.

They only do it when there is no loss for them. It's not genuine at all.

None of them would adhere to it when wanting to get on a tube home in the rush hour when there's only space for a person or 2 on each one that comes.

The road thing is ridiculous, just as I thought.
Neither DH or I want to be splattered with shit or soaked in a puddle, no reason why he should have to protect me from it.
So I guess helpful - yes (heavy doors, awkward coats) - chivalry no (standing up, roadside walking)
So many of these things should simply be mutual respect not man to woman.

If door is heavy, a young fit woman will find it easier than a child, whatever the child's sex!

Did you ask him where he learnt that/ got it from? That's something I'd be interested to know.

And if you did, can you tell us!

He must have learnt that somewhere. Unless he has a penchant for Hollywood Fred Astaire type films it's a bit of a random thing to come out with!

I have gladly been on the receiving end of some kind acts - foe example a man offering to take a heavy suitcase up station stairs when my baby was in a sling. I could have done it, but I appreciated the help. He was friendly and well mannered with a, “you’ve got the hands free thing covered there - but I could grab that if you like?”

However, my personal experience is that on almost every occasion that I’ve turned down “chivalry”, the response has not been gentlemanly - if by that we mean respectful, kind, polite. I have had my suitcase actually wrenched out of my hands as I’ve said, “no really I’m fine thanks.”

So I’m inclined to agree with those who say it’s often performative. The best manners are those that don’t make someone else feel uncomfortable.

In the end I suppose.

If you like that sort of thing in a man then aok that's what you want hope you find what you're looking for and he's lovely.

If it's your dad/ grandpa etc or a man you know and like then really the vast majority will go with it. You know he's not a git. It's not a big deal. I mean I would never say to my dad WHY ARE YOU HELPING ME INTO MY COAT YOU MISOGYNIST. I mean that would be bizarre. Some men like to claim that sort of thing is common feminists are awful and that's why they won't ever offer a seat to a pregnant woman/ do anything when it's obvious there's a problem for anyone female. They might go off at me! They could be a feminist! They wanted equality why should I! Etc etc

The fact that so many men
A. Are very unhappy/ unsettled if we don't follow the script
And.
B. Never do it in situations where it would mean any negative impact on them.

That says it all really surely?

I quote like it if done respectfully, when it comes to carrying heavier things yes my dh would take it because, like it or not generally most men are stronger than women
Opening doors would just be whoever walks through first, and i would hold it for anyone
I would find it strange if he went round and pulled my chair out though , i think when older people do certain things , like say ladies first they do it out of respect as opposed to sexism