If a police officer arrested you like Wayne Couzens?

[faithfulbird20]

Unfortunately it's taken losing Sarah to such a horrific crime to ask such a question. But what are we supposed to do. Someone arrests you off duty and you don't know whether u can trust them due to this case. What would you do? Ring 999 and say I'm being arrested by so and so but I don't know if he's on duty or if he's dodgy please can you log it somewhere. I just want to know if I'm definitely being taken to the police station I feel unsafe. There should be some sort of law. But what could you do? You've got no chance. No chance of safety. It's scary.

Sad truth is that if she started to be uncooperative he can overpower her anyway.

Passers by see a police officer and a woman resisting arrest.

I know there's always this urge for women in particular to think we'll this won't happen to me if I xyz.

The fact is women have a list a long as your arm of what we're not supposed to do. Whether we do them or not, we know that if anything happens there will be something we got 'wrong'.

And our lives are so restricted/ it's pushed and pushed that we are prey, not safe. Don't walk alone after dark. Pay for a cab (even though cab drivers can and do assault women). Don't drink more than a couple. Don't take an eye off your drink. And on and on and on.

It's a rubbish way to live. Men get attacked more than us and they don't get all this.

Sorry for rant.

This crime was really unusual. In the end once he approached her that was it. He couldn't let her go as she would prob call police to see what was going on and then he could be under scrutiny.

Once he started that was it. I'm sorry I know it's a really dismal thing to say.

She did nothing wrong. And nor do any other victims of sexual violence/ worse.

They have the bad luck to come across a man who is looking for a victim or sees an opportunity. It is his fault. Irrespective of anything she was wearing doing.

We need to focus on the attackers. The utter failure of our whole justice system when it comes to VAWG.

This police officer was known as the rapist at work. He had previous reports of indecent exposure. Police took no action. He exposed himself in a fast food place with staff and customers there. That says escalating. They got his numberplate and reported. Police did nothing.

And then some fella ex copper on news said oh well flashing is trivial of course they didn't investigate.

It has been known for decades that flashers often escalate.

If they treated things like that seriously then some of these men would be off the streets etc before they got to serious crimes.

This case is shocking. Because he was one of theirs. He was known had been reported for sex offences. His colleagues called him the rapist.

And if he hadn't committed this crime he'd still be out there.

It's on the met 100%.

@LizBennet

Seriously, after this? I’d create a hell of a scene if it was a lone policeman trying to apprehend me.

YES

Prior to this case I’d have done exactly as Sarah did. I’d defer to the police authority and as someone who’s had no police dealings in the past I’d be terrified at the idea of being arrested. I’d like to say I’d do different now, but I’m not sure that I would when it came to it.
‘Solutions’ like apps, phone calls to police stations or insisting on a marked car attending are all well and good to reassure you in the case of a genuine arrest, but would make no difference in a case like this where force would be used as it would if someone were genuinely resisting arrest.
In an idea world police officers would work in pairs, and al the police officers I know would love that to be the case. Funding as it is though makes that impossible. If the government are serious about improvements surely that a priority, to protect citizens AND officers.
For me the real crux in this case is the institutionalised failings within The Met (and i am separating them from other forces though of course other areas have problems) that allowed a man known as ‘the rapist’ to be serving, other officers to be joking about it, and warning signs to be openly ignored.

Yes. There should be an inquiry. Although the Steven Lawrence inquiry recommended this and it hasn’t really happened yet.
However a lot of resources go into ensuring people in positions of contact with vulnerable people have to be vetted - whether you’re a police officer or a volunteer at a school - disclosure certificates, etc. (An outcome of the Ian Huntly murders). It’s obviously not working! There should be an examination of what went wrong systematically. Violence against women in our society is a huge and often hidden issue, this case has shone a light on this. I’m not sure i agree that this is a fuss because it’s a white woman. I think it’s because it happened to a woman. And maybe we have had enough.

@snowdropsandcrocuses

He does not speak for us. He is not one of us

The problem is that he was one of you. He used his warrant card and his handcuffs to commit the murder. He literally did it in his capacity as a police officer. However much you'd like to protest otherwise, HE IS ONE OF YOU.

We do not stand by that utter wanker.

But as an institution, you did. You covered up for him when he was repeatedly caught exposing himself and wanking in public.

You (as an institution) nicknamed him 'the Rapist' but thought that was a bit of a giggle and did nothing to address his behaviours.

Right up to the point where he committed murder, you fucking stood by him. You had his back. As an institution, you facilitated what happened.

Please don't tarnish us all with his stains. Please be safe but continue to trust us or at least treat us as you find us. We are not all the same.

NACALT (Not All Coppers Are Like That.)

Seriously, you will see yourself as one of the good guys. You may well be. But the problem is, at this point, we have no way of distinguishing between you. How on earth are we meant to trust you?

A few police men/women have posted to make the same points. None has made even a token effort to address the systemic cultural failings that allowed - facilitated - Wayne Couzens getting to the point that he did. You acknowledge that there are 'rough edges' but surely you must see that it is worse than that, when it allowing women and BAME people to be persecuted and murdered?

The Met are a fucking joke and I would like to know wtf is going on there, we have had the Stephen Lawrence cover up with the Met, this and there are other recent things but due to perimenopause brain I can’t bloody think what they are but it’s a sick joke, I don’t think I like the sound of police in the Met, cracking jokes about someone, their own being a rapist, fucking sick.

thedancingbear

So you would have a similar distrust of the NHS - what with Harold Shipmen and Beverley Allit to name but a few.

@HateJudgmentalPeople

The Met are a fucking joke and I would like to know wtf is going on there, we have had the Stephen Lawrence cover up with the Met, this and there are other recent things but due to perimenopause brain I can’t bloody think what they are but it’s a sick joke, I don’t think I like the sound of police in the Met, cracking jokes about someone, their own being a rapist, fucking sick.

The police took selfies with the bodies of two murdered sisters (Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman).

The police told the mother of Richard Okorogheye that if she couldn't find her son how did they expect them to find him for her.

I have told my nephews not to engage with the police at all. Don't even smile at them, don't ask for directions nothing, nada.

Yes! All that awful stuff! I knew there was so much more!

So many male police officers are judgmental horrible fuckers and this isn’t what you expect from police, you expect them to be nice and care for victims and put their own judgments aside, I can only imagine what they say in the tea room

@Felix125

thedancingbear

So you would have a similar distrust of the NHS - what with Harold Shipmen and Beverley Allit to name but a few.

Did other GPs joke about Shipman being “the granny-killer”?

The issue with Shipman was that he covered his tracks well - patients all also thought he was a lovely caring doctor. And there were massive reforms in how we are regulated, and how controlled drugs are stored, following his case.

@thedancingbear
Yep. You're totally right. As an institution we fucked up. I have not heard he was known as 'the rapist'. I'm not a met officer but I also hadn't read that in the news so this is news to me and it's disgusting.

You're also right that he was one of us. He did use his tools of the trade to commit this offence. I had thought to say to you that it is the same as a plumber or telephone engineer or vicar using their tools to prey on the vulnerable but that's not the point.

I don't know how to fix it. I genuinely believe it is a societal issue as well as an institutional one. I do know that police alone cannot solve the domestic abuse crisis. Time and again we see offenders repeating their behaviour. They are arrested and all too often released without charge. Partially because of the great burden of proof, partly because the support isn't good enough for the victims, sometimes because the victims believe it won't happen again or that they can change them. Sometimes because we didn't do well enough.

I understand the fear. I know the fear. I have two daughters whom I am constantly afraid for. I don't know how we can make effective and real change. Women are being murdered daily by men and I see it. It breaks my heart.

I am hopeful that the talks right now about a 'prevent' style of policing domestic abuse actually takes place. We need investment in courses/education to try and effectively rehabilitate these offenders. Not because I want to help them but because I hope it can save lives of women. Positive action after the event isn't working. We are already treating domestic abuse seriously (despite what you may believe) but the powers we have are not enough. We need to get to the root cause. Why aren't we screaming about porn? I don't mean the more mainstream stuff but I'm talking about the extreme porn our young boys are looking at.

I cannot tell you how many children I have dealt with that are sharing indecent images of themselves. That are 'helping themselves' to young girls because porn teaches them girls like to be dominated. Because porn shows them young girls 'want' anal sex. The language these kids are using is disgusting. The 'yes daddy' texts I see from 13 year old girls who think that's how they should talk. There is no education on respect, consent, sexual appropriateness. They're all too worried about gender, sexual preference and pronouns to see this happening. WE'RE all too worried about LGBQT when we should be terrified of the shit they have access to on their phones.

We need to acknowledge the link between pornography and domestic violence. Sexual violence. It is endemic. And incredibly difficult to prosecute. The courts and the juries just do not want to accept it is happening. Even if we get a rape case to court, time and time again the jury will find them not guilty. Why? Because lawyers make the women seem like liars and the jury cannot say 'beyond reasonable doubt' that he did it. I am exhausted by the state of it.

So yes, I'm sorry. Genuinely. The institutions are not good enough. The police. The courts. Social services. Education. Domestic Abuse support. Housing. Councils. The laws. But I am trying to do my bit from within. I do what I can for my victims. I am however at a loss as to how to effect real change. And I don't stand by him. And for the record, I would never stand by quietly calling a colleague 'the rapist'.

@Felix125

thedancingbear

So you would have a similar distrust of the NHS - what with Harold Shipmen and Beverley Allit to name but a few.

First, I am sure that Shipman's crimes massively dented particularly older people's trust in the NHS and their GP's. I bet many were terrified to seek help for years afterwards. What a fucking stupid comparison.

But second, did the NHS collude with eg. Shipman and cover up his crimes?

I am sure there were systematic failings but there was (unless I'm mistaken) nothing in the character of burying/wilfully ignoring Couzens' other sexual offences.

There was nothing in the character of Shipman exchanging misogynistic and homophobic banter with his mates (www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/five-police-officers-shared-misogynistic-21730119), suggesting a culture that is rotten to the core.

What have you got to say about any of this? Nothing at all, I expect. You ignored the points last time I raised them with you, and I expect you'll do the same now.

It was your organisation as a whole that allowed - even facilitated - Sarah Everard'd death. Even your top brass has now come out and acknowledged systemic failings. It's really disturbing that you as (I assume) a rank-and-file officer can't recognise this, and it diminishes my trust in you even further.

Oh and let’s not forget the Homophobia over the Grindr Killer, his victims were gay men so why bother looking for their killer, not the Met force as it was Essex but it’s still the police!

I have told my nephews not to engage with the police at all. Don't even smile at them, don't ask for directions nothing, nada

Same, and we are a white middle class family. We live in Brixton though, so see exactly what they are like.

They don’t do anything to keep us safe. Every interaction I’ve had with them - burglary, car crime, muggings, witnessing street fights and kids being chased by gangs etc they have given me a crime reference number at best, or more often told me they weren’t interested. We all know they don’t investigate rape or DV. Perhaps they do great work behind the scenes, but the only stuff I actually see is them hassling black schoolkids.

I didn’t feel this way growing up. I have come to this conclusion based on my interactions with them. We police by consent in this country, and if middle class white doctors feel this way about the Met, there needs to be root and branch reform.

I have told my nephews not to engage with the police at all. Don't even smile at them, don't ask for directions nothing, nada.

My experience of asking police for directions is they never know the answer anyway

No doubt we will get the usual bullshit clicked statement, very similar to the one Pritti Patel made and it always starts like this “changes will have to be made” blah blah blah..you hear it so often that you just know it’s crap, they all spout the same shite, Government, police, and so on...

cliched not clicked

@GreatPotato

I have told my nephews not to engage with the police at all. Don't even smile at them, don't ask for directions nothing, nada.

My experience of asking police for directions is they never know the answer anyway

My experience is they tell you, very aggressively, to fuck off. Won’t make that mistake again 🤷‍♀️

@Changechangychange

I have told my nephews not to engage with the police at all. Don't even smile at them, don't ask for directions nothing, nada

Same, and we are a white middle class family. We live in Brixton though, so see exactly what they are like.

They don’t do anything to keep us safe. Every interaction I’ve had with them - burglary, car crime, muggings, witnessing street fights and kids being chased by gangs etc they have given me a crime reference number at best, or more often told me they weren’t interested. We all know they don’t investigate rape or DV. Perhaps they do great work behind the scenes, but the only stuff I actually see is them hassling black schoolkids.

I didn’t feel this way growing up. I have come to this conclusion based on my interactions with them. We police by consent in this country, and if middle class white doctors feel this way about the Met, there needs to be root and branch reform.

YYY. I am a white middle class lawyer, and until recently lived in Peckham, and this is exactly what I experienced and saw.

@snowdropsandcrocuses

He does not speak for us. He is not one of us

The problem is that he was one of you. He used his warrant card and his handcuffs to commit the murder. He literally did it in his capacity as a police officer. However much you'd like to protest otherwise, HE IS ONE OF YOU.

We do not stand by that utter wanker.

But as an institution, you did. You covered up for him when he was repeatedly caught exposing himself and wanking in public.

You (as an institution) nicknamed him 'the Rapist' but thought that was a bit of a giggle and did nothing to address his behaviours.

Right up to the point where he committed murder, you fucking stood by him. You had his back. As an institution, you facilitated what happened.

Please don't tarnish us all with his stains. Please be safe but continue to trust us or at least treat us as you find us. We are not all the same.

NACALT (Not All Coppers Are Like That.)

Seriously, you will see yourself as one of the good guys. You may well be. But the problem is, at this point, we have no way of distinguishing between you. How on earth are we meant to trust you?

A few police men/women have posted to make the same points. None has made even a token effort to address the systemic cultural failings that allowed - facilitated - Wayne Couzens getting to the point that he did. You acknowledge that there are 'rough edges' but surely you must see that it is worse than that, when it allowing women and BAME people to be persecuted and murdered?“

This is your problem as an officer, now, snowdropsandcrocusses.

I’ve always felt it was wrong, too, to tar everyone, until very, very recently.

What finally swung it the other way for me was hearing Nazir Afzal yesterday on BBC News saying that other officers (plural, beggars belief), already in full possession of the facts we all now know, spoke up on his behalf in court.
That just blew my mind. How and why?!
I’m a late, middle aged woman who has generally trusted in the police force. The anecdotal, I had supposed, tales of officers protecting their own come what may had not dented that trust.

Hearing a respected advocate confirming it to be so yesterday was the end of unquestioning trust for me (and for my adult children, woman and man). I’m unlikely to ever be apprehended again but if I am, I will not be getting out of my vehicle or if I’m walking getting into a police car, marked or otherwise, with a lone officer. I’ll happily follow them to the nearest station to answer any questions they have, that’s it. Any attempt to force me to do otherwise will result in resisting as loudly as I can manage (though I don’t know what that will be, one interaction in my adult life because of a very minor vehicle condition misdemeanour left me shaking with fear and barely able to speak).
It will take a seismic shift in the forces to earn that trust and I just don’t know if that’s possible. It certainly isn’t under current leaderships.

Police are more interested in drug dealers, anything that involves making money illegally seems to be of higher importance to the police, and courts, than preventing and catching violent sex offenders and murderers, I’ve always thought this.

Haven't yet rtft so I don't know if someone's already posted this but I've just read this about a French policeman who used his police id to rape and murder women and children.

uk.yahoo.com/news/serial-killer-hunt-spanning-decades-214100885.html

Some years ago, I was in some held up traffic and noticed half a dozen or so Met officers running fast down the road. They reached their target in time which was an ice cream van just about to pack up for the day. They left sucking on their 99s. I was not impressed.

We were in a hire car in London and got pulled over very aggressively. Right next to the bus stop where the drug dealers were who we had repeatedly reported but the police had done nothing done about. Much easier to hassle slightly confused drivers I guess 🙄