If a police officer arrested you like Wayne Couzens?

[faithfulbird20]

Unfortunately it's taken losing Sarah to such a horrific crime to ask such a question. But what are we supposed to do. Someone arrests you off duty and you don't know whether u can trust them due to this case. What would you do? Ring 999 and say I'm being arrested by so and so but I don't know if he's on duty or if he's dodgy please can you log it somewhere. I just want to know if I'm definitely being taken to the police station I feel unsafe. There should be some sort of law. But what could you do? You've got no chance. No chance of safety. It's scary.

We're conditioned as a society to obey a person of authority - the majority of us would of done exactly as Sarah did.

Do we know what she did though? He could just have hand cuffed and forced her.

Theres an obidence study by Hofling that proves we just don't question a person in authority even if we are unsure of the situation. People like to think they would act differently but the reality is you probably wouldn't. The study is very interesting - worth reading up on

If we saw a lone policeman arrest a woman, although many of us would hesitate to assume that the policeman is doing anything other than his job, perhaps we could openly film the arrest. This shows the police officer (if he is rogue) that his actions have been recorded and hopefully lead him to not pursue that victim further.

Would that put the filmer on the wrong side of the law? I don't know what the public's rights are.

In reality there is very very little anyone could do to resist and the more you did so the more anyone passing by would assume it was a legitimate arrest.
There is going to be an ongoing issue now with criminals attempting to use this to their advantage whilst the law abiding would, despite what happened to Sarah, still do as they were told.
I think all officers being double-crewed would be great and offers everyone including themselves a bit more protection. The costs would be prohibitive though and police would be even more stretched than they are now.
Hopefully people will now be more aware that even if pulled by an off duty/undercover officer that it should be a marked car that picks them up.
The police also have a responsibility to set the bar higher for their officer and staff conduct.

The law needs to be changed so that police officers can only arrest people if there are two of them present, and so that the person being arrested has a right to remain where they are and call a trusted person to chaperone them prior to getting into a car. After this, they cannot expect people to be any more prepared to get into a car with a stranger with a warrant card than they would a stranger without a warrant card, so these basic safeguards must be put in place. If not I'd resist arrest.

@Sylvvie

Any officer will be happy for you to call 101 or 999 to get their collar number confirmed. Officers in Scotland can ONLY arrest people in pairs.

As it should be. The likelihood of this happening again would be many magnitudes smaller if that was the case here, too.

@OddSockReunion

The law needs to be changed so that police officers can only arrest people if there are two of them present, and so that the person being arrested has a right to remain where they are and call a trusted person to chaperone them prior to getting into a car. After this, they cannot expect people to be any more prepared to get into a car with a stranger with a warrant card than they would a stranger without a warrant card, so these basic safeguards must be put in place. If not I'd resist arrest.

And if that means nasty violent criminals escape while they're waiting for the chaperone...

And if that means nasty violent criminals escape while they're waiting for the chaperone...

Unfortunately, the 'nasty violent criminals' are, too often, those in the police uniform.

There has to be a balancing of interests. Policing as we know it only works if they have the public's consent and trust. As it is, they are pissing both of those away.

And if that means nasty violent criminals escape while they're waiting for the chaperone..

That doesn’t seem to bother them when it’s a rapist or domestic abuser does it?

I suspect that this is not his first murder because just how calmly he executed it - didn't he get a coffee and a snack along the way and when he bought the petrol with which to set her alight. Far too calm and collected for a newbie murderer. That said it doesn't add up as everyone knows there's CCTV everywhere and indeed the hired car would lead back to him.

I think psychologically its natural to try to imagine ways "out" of the situation when you hear about these horrific crimes. e.g. maybe if you ran away, screamed etc etc. Its a way of dealing with the psychological stress and not necessarily wrong -- so long as it doesn't tip over into victim blaming OR poor advice. Because the alternative is to imagine yourself utterly helpless in that situation and that is terrifying even if it is the reality.
One thing worth mentioning is that while generations of black parents have had "the talk" with their children, the rise of camera phones has also given (in some cases) them the chance to record their interactions with the police, or to record other peoples interactions in the case of bystanders. Tragically this hasn't always saved the lives of people doing it - but it is one of the reasons that there is more conversation around the issue. So I think this is likely to be a more successful tactic than just screaming/shouting/resisting. Unfortunately most women are not going to be able to overpower a man trained in restraint techniques and shouting etc is only going to give the impression to bystanders that you are a crazy woman being arrested. Politely (and non-confrontationally) asking to phone 111, or appearing to be on the phone (even if you aren't) and telling the other person what is happening is likely to help more. As is recording interactions if you are with a friend who is stopped OR if you see someone being stopped by a police officer and it makes you uncomfortable (and this can apply whether its because they are a woman on her own like Sarah or an ethnic minority or anyone really). And, in the case that the police officer is a good, honest person, they aren't being harmed in any way simply by being filmed.

101 not 111 obviously. I don't know how 111 would be able to help

@blueshoes

If we saw a lone policeman arrest a woman, although many of us would hesitate to assume that the policeman is doing anything other than his job, perhaps we could openly film the arrest. This shows the police officer (if he is rogue) that his actions have been recorded and hopefully lead him to not pursue that victim further.

Would that put the filmer on the wrong side of the law? I don't know what the public's rights are.

I think if the police did try to prevent members of the public peacefully filming arrests etc that absolutely would be something that needed fighting in court to be honest.

As a very short term measure, there is an app called My SOS Family.

You register one or more fiends/family as contacts. If something happens to you, they get calls/texts/emails to alert them and the location you’re at.Adding those people to the “find my iPhone” function means they can track you on that from then on.

The app includes an emergency one touch button that is installed on the screen one swipe left of the home screen in a iPhone. You could have the app open on your phone or be on the emergency button screen with your phone in your pocket, and push the button discretely if you are approached/

You can also activate voice commands to trigger it. And also to contact emergency services.

There is another feature- you set a countdown timer and if you don’t cancel it within the specified timeframe the alerts are triggered. So if you think a trip will take you 15 minutes you can set it for that timeframe. Or even at something like five minute intervals and keep checking in and resetting it.

In the longer term:

1. Body cams for police
2. An app that people can use to verify the arresting officer/s and log their arrest with authorities as suggested upthread
3. Huge culture change in the police force. Absolutely zero tolerance for racism, misogyny Andy type of bullying behaviour.

The only times I've ever been approached by a police officer I found them very intimidating and arrogant. One time, years ago, me and a friend were sharing a bottle of wine in the park inLeicester Square one early evening. I had no idea it was illeagal to do that. The young male officer took our bottle of wine off us and when I objected, he threatened to arrest me and take me to the police station.

How can ANY woman, approached by a male police officer, when she is told she is, unknowingly breaking the law object when they have ALL the power?

My heart breaks for what she must have gone through and what her family are going through now. I have no idea what we can do about it. Feels like the deck is stacked against us as women whatever we do tbh...

After this tragic event it is time for there to be changes brought in nationally in the way women are treated if they are arrested & for there to be more information available so that anyone can check the validity of any person claiming to be a police officer. I imagine it is easy now to fake a warrant card knowing that you can buy fake driving licences & passports if you know the right people.

[quote MrsSkylerWhite]@Mariell
*
but how many people would be like Sarah and just believe him and meekly comply and obey? *

Putting aside how offensive that is …

I think you’d be surprised. I am not meek, I don’t take crap, more so the older I get.

I have been pulled over once in 30 years of driving. I wasn’t aware I had done anything wrong. I was horrified at my reaction afterwards: I followed the police car as indicated, my throat went dry, I could barely speak and I got out of my car and handed my licence to the officer without question. He checked me and my registration out over his radio, pointed out my misdemeanour, told me not to do it again and sent me on my way.
I cried for much of the rest of my journey and don’t think I stopped shaking for a good hour. This was for a minor vehicle misdemeanour.
I have no idea how I would have reacted to a more serious charge. I probably would have gone along with whatever the officer had said.

I hope you don’t regret your words one day.[/quote]
This 100%

Many years ago I got out of my car at 4am on a deserted street when a lone police officer signalled for me to pull over.

Luckily it was a lone female officer and was only interested in whether the car I was driving was my own.

How many times had I read that you should call 101 or drive to a police station? Did I do it? No, I did as I was told.

This thread breaks my heart.

I am a police officer in England. It is correct that we can arrest on Or off duty, even alone. But here is what I can tell every woman that is afraid.

• no off duty officer that I know would attempt to arrest you whilst off duty except in exceptional circumstances. By that I mean they have witnessed you committing a crime in action (shoplifting, assault etc). Officers do not want to put themselves back in duty when they are resting. It involved a shit ton of paperwork and we work enough already. If you jump a red light, or talk on your mobile phone etc we can deal with that in slow time. There is no way we would be arresting you for that when we are ON duty, let alone off duty. At best (and this is only the most zealous of officers) they can have a ticket issued at a later date. So, if you haven't just been brawling, or committing some obvious offence, off duty officers will ignore you.
• covid offences were primarily dealt with by words of advice. Prolific offenders may have tickets issued or slow time charges. Again, every officer I know would actively avoid arresting you for that
• drink driving is the only time I can imagine an officer arresting you at the roadside. However, most driving offences must be dealt with by an officer IN UNIFORM. You can be spoken to by plain clothes officer but not stopped in your car. They must have the appropriate vehicle to do that.
• if you are arrested/detained by a plain clothes officer and he/she is legit. Be polite but be honest. Tel them your fears and request they call 999 or provide you with proof that they are a warranted officer. I don't know any cops that wouldn't respond appropriately
• it is incorrect to say you will never be asked to travel in a plain vehicle. Plain clothes often indicates serious offences/detectives. They will come to you in unmarked cars (think warrant for drugs or indecent images) and if you are arrested by a detective and do not appear to be a threat/aggressive then there is a very real possibility you will be asked to travel in an unmarked car. This affords you more privacy as well. If you do not want to travel in a plain car then say so. Plain clothes officers will not risk your or their safety by having a scrap with you. They will call for back up and uniform officers if required.

There are literally NO REASONS I can think of that would make me ask a compliant alone female to travel in my PERSONAL vehicle following arrest. Immediately after arrest and when safe to do so I would call that in on 999 myself so officers can assist. This is for several reasons. I do not want to put myself back on duty for hours to deal with this. I do not have any safety equipment (radio, handcuffs, baton, pava, backup etc). I cannot show I have been compliant with legislation and I have nothing to evidence that which means any offence you are suspected of will likely get closed because of the circumstances.

I am so gutted. So angry. So disappointed in that disgusting specimen. He does not speak for us. He is not one of us. He has smeared a disgusting smut over a service that I still genuine believe is there to help. I know we aren't perfect. I know some of us have rough edges. But I swear to you all that my colleagues, even the biggest burly misogynistic ones will stop to help a lost child or comfort a victim of horrific crime. We do not stand by that utter wanker. I am sorry. Please don't tarnish us all with his stains. Please be safe but continue to trust us or at least treat us as you find us. We are not all the same.

snowdrops based on what you said, if I was walking alone and stopped by a person claiming to be a police officer out of uniform and in an unmarked car, thing first I would do is do what Sarah Everards' mother tells her to every evening - RUN!

I will still get handcuffed and killed anyway. And nobody will step in as I will just be seen as resisting arrest.

What are you doing to root out the rotten eggs in the police force. You said what women should or should not expect. But what should women DO when they are stopped.

'Trust me' rings very hollow.

I will do what my mum told me to do: shout loudly "My name is Toobigformyboots and I am being taken by the police. Someone please tell my family. My name is Toobigformyboots, my family live in blank street, the police are taking me away".
Repeat until you can shout no more, even in a meat wagon, people outside can hear you, especially when the vehicle is stopped in traffic or at traffic lights. It makes it easier to find you.

Poor Sarah didn't know to shout. She trusted the police and she was raped and murdered by one of them. RIP.

snowdrops based on what you said, if I was walking alone and stopped by a person claiming to be a police officer out of uniform and in an unmarked car, thing first I would do is do what Sarah Everards' mother tells her to every evening - RUN!

I will still get handcuffed and killed anyway. And nobody will step in as I will just be seen as resisting arrest.

Not necessarily. The scene then becomes one of a woman running away from a man. Quite possible that Couzens would not have wanted to draw attention to himself by stopping to explain to passers by that he was an off-duty police officer. He might well just have let her run. No wonder her poor mother is tortured by such a fatal combination of circumstances.

I would have got in the car. A lone man pulled up besides me once and flashed a card and said he was a police officer and asked what I was doing. I didn't even think that he might not have been a real police officer until Sarah was abducted in this way.

After this story I like to think that I'd be more cautious but the fact is he was a police officer so I'm sure he very, very convincingly acted the part and made her feel like this was all normal and routine.

I can’t help but think that if Sarah Everard had refused to get in the vehicle/demanded the station be called etc that her killer would’ve forced her regardless- whether he was in the police force or not.
He had somewhat of a reason to arrest her for visiting during covid/lockdown so she would’ve thought she was being arrested legitimately. I would’ve done exactly the same as she did and gotten in the car, thinking shit I’m going to get a massive fine now. He handcuffed her which police don’t routinely (do they?) so I might have asked why are you handcuffing me, but ultimately I’d still comply. He had another vehicle on hand to switch her into, presumably if he’d been seen/reported at the time he took her. He did what he did quickly, only a few hours elapsed. It was planned. Even if that witness had reported the incident, I think the outcome would likely be the same.

I think people are focussing WAY too much on ‘if I’m ever get approached by a single, male, police officer - THIS is what I’m gonna do’. This case is unique (I hope). It doesn’t happen every day. It’s useful to know what to do if it should happen to you, but there are hundreds of other ways your safety can be compromised.

I’ve been locked in the back of a taxi, I heard the central locking engage and rung my mum. I’ve been flashed at in parks, followed on the beach.

I’m not sure I’d take any notice of someone being arrested and kicking off/screaming, making a fuss either to be honest. I’d just wonder what they had done and probably wouldn’t be in a position to engage. Most people will turn a blind eye, so that wouldn’t have saved her life. You have no way of knowing how you’d react anyway.
Christ people have witnessed rapes in crowded areas and done nothing.

Plus I’m sure I read that most people are murdered /raped by someone they know.