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Original poster

If a police officer arrested you like Wayne Couzens?

401 replies

faithfulbird20 · 30/09/2021 11:57

Unfortunately it's taken losing Sarah to such a horrific crime to ask such a question. But what are we supposed to do. Someone arrests you off duty and you don't know whether u can trust them due to this case. What would you do? Ring 999 and say I'm being arrested by so and so but I don't know if he's on duty or if he's dodgy please can you log it somewhere. I just want to know if I'm definitely being taken to the police station I feel unsafe. There should be some sort of law. But what could you do? You've got no chance. No chance of safety. It's scary.

OP posts:
Changechangychange · 01/10/2021 10:46

What finally swung it the other way for me was hearing Nazir Afzal yesterday on BBC News saying that other officers (plural, beggars belief), already in full possession of the facts we all now know, spoke up on his behalf in court.

That is appalling. Still very much “one of them” then Angry

thedancingbear · 01/10/2021 10:48

@Changechangychange

What finally swung it the other way for me was hearing Nazir Afzal yesterday on BBC News saying that other officers (plural, beggars belief), already in full possession of the facts we all now know, spoke up on his behalf in court.

That is appalling. Still very much “one of them” then Angry

Christ, I didn't know that. They had his back even in full knowledge of what he had done.

The police hate women. They hate black and asian people. They are not on our side.

HateJudgmentalPeople · 01/10/2021 10:52

They hate gay men too.

When a friend of mine called to report her boyfriend had battered her then she got arrested and in the van one of the policemen said to her, “no wonder he batters you, look at the state of you” and she was in total shock and very upset, she made a complaint but never heard anything again!

snowdropsandcrocuses · 01/10/2021 10:52

@thedancingbear it is ridiculous to suggest the police hate women and black and Asian people. It simply isn't true. I acknowledge there are problems and they can do better. It is simply stirring up hatred to say police hate women and the BAME community. It also doesn't help in the slightest.

IamJuliaJohnson · 01/10/2021 10:53

The thing that makes this so horrifying for me is that I’m pretty sure I might have done exactly as she did. He is a vile and predatory monster, she would have been on the back foot. I would have been on the back foot. Even if I knew he was wrong I would have doubted myself in that moment.

Adding in that she had ‘shared a bottle of wine’ - I’ve no idea what that meant for her, but for me it would have meant that my judgement was impaired. I would have been happy, probably not drunk, but probably even more likely to go along with things that are obviously not right.

Like I said, I don’t think she did anything wrong. Sadly I don’t think she stood a chance and it terrifies me.

HateJudgmentalPeople · 01/10/2021 10:56

I didn’t realise he wasn’t in a police car! I thought he was in his uniform with the car, the fact he was plainclothed makes it seem that he was pretending to be plain clothed which is higher than a bobby, is it not?

thedancingbear · 01/10/2021 11:00

[quote snowdropsandcrocuses]@thedancingbear it is ridiculous to suggest the police hate women and black and Asian people. It simply isn't true. I acknowledge there are problems and they can do better. It is simply stirring up hatred to say police hate women and the BAME community. It also doesn't help in the slightest. [/quote]
It's how it looks to many of us. It is how I feel. It may not be all of you but it is many of you. Go and have a read of Couzens and his mates' whatsapp messages, and come back and tell me my feelings are unjustified.

SophieKat1982 · 01/10/2021 11:02

I keep hearing discussion and advise about calling in to check the person is a genuine police officer but this man WAS a genuine serving police officer. So even if you called in, this fact would only have been confirmed.

This is about abuse of authority. I was fortunate to have been raised to question authority - but that’s not to say that I wouldn’t have done exactly what Sarah did in that position. I don’t know what the answer is but I do raise my children to understand that authority figures can and sometimes do use their position to abuse. It’s always been the case and always will be, sadly.

MrsSkylerWhite · 01/10/2021 11:13

dancing bear

Christ, I didn't know that. They had his back even in full knowledge of what he had done.“

My opinions have been turned on their head these past days. I could hardly believe what I was hearing. His disgust was palpable.

It was followed by footage of Cressida Dick expressing the “fury” of every other officer. Very clearly, not every.

The current leadership has to be replaced. Patel needs to take a long, hard look at herself, too. She re-appointed the Commissioner in full possession of all of the facts. Anyone in her position with any semblance of conscience and responsibility would go.
Oh, wait ….

MrsSkylerWhite · 01/10/2021 11:14

SophieKat1982

I keep hearing discussion and advise about calling in to check the person is a genuine police officer but this man WAS a genuine serving police officer. So even if you called in, this fact would only have been confirmed. “

True. He was off duty though, questions would have been asked of him and the fact that he had apprehended Sarah would have been logged.
That in itself may have been enough to save her life.

OddSockReunion · 01/10/2021 11:15

@Changechangychange

I have told my nephews not to engage with the police at all. Don't even smile at them, don't ask for directions nothing, nada

Same, and we are a white middle class family. We live in Brixton though, so see exactly what they are like.

They don’t do anything to keep us safe. Every interaction I’ve had with them - burglary, car crime, muggings, witnessing street fights and kids being chased by gangs etc they have given me a crime reference number at best, or more often told me they weren’t interested. We all know they don’t investigate rape or DV. Perhaps they do great work behind the scenes, but the only stuff I actually see is them hassling black schoolkids.

I didn’t feel this way growing up. I have come to this conclusion based on my interactions with them. We police by consent in this country, and if middle class white doctors feel this way about the Met, there needs to be root and branch reform.

Totally agree.
OddSockReunion · 01/10/2021 11:17

When a friend of mine called to report her boyfriend had battered her then she got arrested and in the van one of the policemen said to her, “no wonder he batters you, look at the state of you” and she was in total shock and very upset, she made a complaint but never heard anything again!

WTAF 🤯

OddSockReunion · 01/10/2021 11:18

@Changechangychange

What finally swung it the other way for me was hearing Nazir Afzal yesterday on BBC News saying that other officers (plural, beggars belief), already in full possession of the facts we all now know, spoke up on his behalf in court.

That is appalling. Still very much “one of them” then Angry

I saw that. All of the "one bad apple" stuff is a crock of shit.
HateJudgmentalPeople · 01/10/2021 11:33

@OddSockReunion

When a friend of mine called to report her boyfriend had battered her then she got arrested and in the van one of the policemen said to her, “no wonder he batters you, look at the state of you” and she was in total shock and very upset, she made a complaint but never heard anything again!

WTAF 🤯

I know! She said his female colleague was silent after this was said, she knew it was wrong yet didn’t report him!
VladmirsPoutine · 01/10/2021 11:35

What really strikes me about this is that Sarah is in a way the 'perfect' innocent victim - had she been for example carrying drugs or indeed a sex worker then I'm not sure we'd be witnessing the watershed moment we currently are - and therein lies a huge issue.

SophieKat1982 · 01/10/2021 11:38

@MrsSkylerWhite

SophieKat1982

I keep hearing discussion and advise about calling in to check the person is a genuine police officer but this man WAS a genuine serving police officer. So even if you called in, this fact would only have been confirmed. “

True. He was off duty though, questions would have been asked of him and the fact that he had apprehended Sarah would have been logged.
That in itself may have been enough to save her life.

Ah! I hadn’t read the facts in enough detail to know this. Thank you.
SparryG · 01/10/2021 11:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

MrsSkylerWhite · 01/10/2021 13:15

SparryG

I think you are over thinking. I am a woman btw. I wouldn't be getting arrested as I don't do anything that could Warrent an arrest. So if a lone policeman approached me with the intent of arrest I would automatically know this was a set up unless of course i was indeed in the middle of committing a crime of course.....“

I thought that too until I was stopped a couple of years ago for a minor vehicle violation I was completely unaware of.

People are not over thinking. Just as I was beginning to believe this awful episode could not possibly be any worse, I have just heard on BBC news that 3 of Couzens’ colleagues are now on suspension pending investigation. They were members of a WhatsApp group, sharing misogynistic opinions.

If anything, I’m beginning to wonder if we have all been under-thinking for a very long time.

MrsSkylerWhite · 01/10/2021 13:16

A WhatsApp group with Couzens.

Lampzade · 01/10/2021 13:55

[quote thedancingbear]@snowdropsandcrocuses

He does not speak for us. He is not one of us

The problem is that he was one of you. He used his warrant card and his handcuffs to commit the murder. He literally did it in his capacity as a police officer. However much you'd like to protest otherwise, HE IS ONE OF YOU.

We do not stand by that utter wanker.

But as an institution, you did. You covered up for him when he was repeatedly caught exposing himself and wanking in public.

You (as an institution) nicknamed him 'the Rapist' but thought that was a bit of a giggle and did nothing to address his behaviours.

Right up to the point where he committed murder, you fucking stood by him. You had his back. As an institution, you facilitated what happened.

Please don't tarnish us all with his stains. Please be safe but continue to trust us or at least treat us as you find us. We are not all the same.

NACALT (Not All Coppers Are Like That.)

Seriously, you will see yourself as one of the good guys. You may well be. But the problem is, at this point, we have no way of distinguishing between you. How on earth are we meant to trust you?

A few police men/women have posted to make the same points. None has made even a token effort to address the systemic cultural failings that allowed - facilitated - Wayne Couzens getting to the point that he did. You acknowledge that there are 'rough edges' but surely you must see that it is worse than that, when it allowing women and BAME people to be persecuted and murdered?[/quote]
This

DrCoconut · 01/10/2021 16:05

I've always been wary of taxis since I read a horrific story about a taxi driver in Nottingham raping a teenage passenger. Essentially you're in a car with a stranger. As for police, my house was the subject of a police raid (not my fault). They sent two officers and one was female because there was a woman and young children in the house. I agree with others who have said that you don't know what you'd do if someone tried to arrest you when they shouldn't until you are in that situation. I've never been arrested but I imagine it's scary even if legitimate.

NiceGerbil · 01/10/2021 17:36

I've lived in met area 45 years.

I have NEVER trusted the met. In fact the police make me nervous. I don't like to see them on the street but they're very very rarely seen on foot now anyway.

Pp said met are awful couldn't remember. I can think of a few things off the top of my head-

Murdering Jean Charles menezes and lying about what he was doing to try to cover up.
Black men dying while interacting with the police at a peculiarly high rate. (See charity Inquest).
Turning women away when trying to report warboys. They had plenty of info about him including iir plate. They didn't believe a black cab driver would do that. He was left to attack women for years longer then should have been because of their misogyny.
Sapphire specialist rape unit had to be disbanded. Evidence was being tampered with, records mishandled. Other stuff.
They were the force that sent their men undercover to con women in environmental activist groups into sexual relationships. Romantic relationships. For ages. Then they just left and the women didn't know why. One spent years looking for him.
Reid another serial rapist who was able to carry out attacks well after they had all the info to get him.
Taking numbers off before policing certain demos so they can't be identified and covering their faces. One of these was where they murdered a man who had done nothing wrong and wasn't even wanting to be at the demo but usual routes were blocked due to it. They lied about that. It never happened like that it's lies. We only know the truth because phone video footage came out.
Stopping black drivers on fuck all grounds and treating them like shit eg the sportswoman who was separated from her baby.
This case not acting on anything when lets face it, those who worked with him know exactly what he was like. And there were reports to the police about him as well.
Failure to show any interest in Bibi and Nicola when missing and their mum who is a v notable CofE woman starting why she believes that was. Family found them. Met action was to take selfies with their bodies which would have shown extreme violence visibly. And send them to their copper mates. We'd never know that if one in the group hadn't reported. And I doubt we'd have even heard about these murders if their mum didn't have such impeccable credentials. Maybe the press would have got interested when the motive came out as that was so bizarre. Not before probably.

Shall I go on?
Corruption, leaking info to media. Illegal phone tapping. Putting Lawrence family under surveillance for years because they had the nerve to be tenacious.

More? There's plenty.

Cressida dick was the one who ran the op when menezes was murdered. She has said some really questionable things about met attitude to rape.

She needs to go. And the met needs to be fucking shaken up entirely.

Lost trust? They think they had it from Londoners? Ha fucking ha.

Changechangychange · 01/10/2021 17:43

Everything @NiceGerbil said

HateJudgmentalPeople · 01/10/2021 17:44

I think we need more female officers! It’s always been males that are mainly the issue, surprise fucking surprise not.

thedancingbear · 01/10/2021 17:59

@HateJudgmentalPeople

I think we need more female officers! It’s always been males that are mainly the issue, surprise fucking surprise not.
I would agree with this 100% (and I'm a feller). The current culture seems to be dominated by aggression, misogyny and male toxicity. It's cultural change that is needed more than anything - a completely fresh approach. There really is no good reason for more than 70% of police officers to be male.