If a police officer arrested you like Wayne Couzens?

[faithfulbird20]

Unfortunately it's taken losing Sarah to such a horrific crime to ask such a question. But what are we supposed to do. Someone arrests you off duty and you don't know whether u can trust them due to this case. What would you do? Ring 999 and say I'm being arrested by so and so but I don't know if he's on duty or if he's dodgy please can you log it somewhere. I just want to know if I'm definitely being taken to the police station I feel unsafe. There should be some sort of law. But what could you do? You've got no chance. No chance of safety. It's scary.

NiceGerbil the Met make Police Scotland look good 😬

Yeah met have set a very high bar in... How to be utterly shit and actively disliked/ hated for decades.

And I live in a leafy North London area, am white, private education, well paid.

I can only imagine how people who aren't so lucky as to be at the top of their shit list feel.

Mind you i do have the luxury of being female...

I mean at the top of their shit list.

Sorry that wasn't well phrased.

@NiceGerbil

I've lived in met area 45 years.

I have NEVER trusted the met. In fact the police make me nervous. I don't like to see them on the street but they're very very rarely seen on foot now anyway.

Pp said met are awful couldn't remember. I can think of a few things off the top of my head-

Murdering Jean Charles menezes and lying about what he was doing to try to cover up.
Black men dying while interacting with the police at a peculiarly high rate. (See charity Inquest).
Turning women away when trying to report warboys. They had plenty of info about him including iir plate. They didn't believe a black cab driver would do that. He was left to attack women for years longer then should have been because of their misogyny.
Sapphire specialist rape unit had to be disbanded. Evidence was being tampered with, records mishandled. Other stuff.
They were the force that sent their men undercover to con women in environmental activist groups into sexual relationships. Romantic relationships. For ages. Then they just left and the women didn't know why. One spent years looking for him.
Reid another serial rapist who was able to carry out attacks well after they had all the info to get him.
Taking numbers off before policing certain demos so they can't be identified and covering their faces. One of these was where they murdered a man who had done nothing wrong and wasn't even wanting to be at the demo but usual routes were blocked due to it. They lied about that. It never happened like that it's lies. We only know the truth because phone video footage came out.
Stopping black drivers on fuck all grounds and treating them like shit eg the sportswoman who was separated from her baby.
This case not acting on anything when lets face it, those who worked with him know exactly what he was like. And there were reports to the police about him as well.
Failure to show any interest in Bibi and Nicola when missing and their mum who is a v notable CofE woman starting why she believes that was. Family found them. Met action was to take selfies with their bodies which would have shown extreme violence visibly. And send them to their copper mates. We'd never know that if one in the group hadn't reported. And I doubt we'd have even heard about these murders if their mum didn't have such impeccable credentials. Maybe the press would have got interested when the motive came out as that was so bizarre. Not before probably.

Shall I go on?
Corruption, leaking info to media. Illegal phone tapping. Putting Lawrence family under surveillance for years because they had the nerve to be tenacious.

More? There's plenty.

Cressida dick was the one who ran the op when menezes was murdered. She has said some really questionable things about met attitude to rape.

She needs to go. And the met needs to be fucking shaken up entirely.

Lost trust? They think they had it from Londoners? Ha fucking ha.

Another murderer to add to the Met catalogue of shame: 2015 serial killer Stephen Port, the "Grindr killer". The Met just assumed that a sequence of young gay men being found dead in the same place in Barking must be because gay men take loads of drugs and die of overdoses as a matter of course, despite receiving information pointing to Port, and one of the men being found with a ludicrously fake "suicide note" written in someone else's handwriting.

Yes. Just gay men didn't connect the 3 murders.

Awesome thanks met!

More women in the police force would but nice but I can't see it happening. I know a woman who joined the police last year. She spent months studying and working to improve her fitness to pass all the tests. She was over the moon to be accepted and loved her training. Then she graduated from training and it all went to pot. The bullying within the police force was like nothing she'd ever experienced before. The existing officers hated new officers because "they're shit and won't last anyway". If she said hi to someone in the office she was blanked by most. If she asked a question they wouldn't respond or they'd give her the wrong answer to show her up in front of bosses. They'd let her make mistakes deliberately. She'd spent 15 years in the army so was used to scary situations and the chain of command but it didn't have the same camaraderie at all.

She reported to her mentor (not sure of the police term) and was told to just hold on for a few more months and then she could transfer to another area. Nothing was ever done about it. She left after 6 months, about half of recruits she trained with left within a year. A few said they wanted to leave but they needed to stick it out for the sake of their CVs. She only knows of 3 people from training who are still there now. After hearing her experience, I have no faith in police officers at all.

I met a female officer who was in SO19 and one who was more standard. They were a couple. The SO19 woman left because of the way she was treated by the men. As did the other woman.

They left and joined the trades.

What really strikes me about this is that Sarah is in a way the 'perfect' innocent victim - had she been for example carrying drugs or indeed a sex worker then I'm not sure we'd be witnessing the watershed moment we currently are - and therein lies a huge issue.

I agree with this, & think a lot identified with her.

But can we expect the police to not be sexist or racist when society is?

@choixx

What really strikes me about this is that Sarah is in a way the 'perfect' innocent victim - had she been for example carrying drugs or indeed a sex worker then I'm not sure we'd be witnessing the watershed moment we currently are - and therein lies a huge issue.

I agree with this, & think a lot identified with her.

Yes there is so much in the way the police treat different victims. Problem is we don't hear about the vast majority of rapes and even murders in the news. The media are in this too.

SE was an exception to the norm massively. She was still missing when it started to be reported rather than her body being found. I have heard her friends/ family really pushed to get it covered. She was white, attractive, young, well educated and with a good job. The media were very interested and the story was all over the papers. That meant massive public awareness and it built from there. And then turned out murderer was in the met.

It sparked something in the public, and so there was this widespread public reaction. All of the women who had been victims, all those let down by the police, all those who were and are sick to the back teeth of the news being littered with horrific crimes against women day after day and knowing that's the tip of the iceberg. It all came out.

I think it was a bit like how George Floyd being murdered in the USA sparked a massive reaction globally. It was a reaction to all the racist police brutality in the USA centred on one horrific incident.

@choixx

But can we expect the police to not be sexist or racist when society is?

Vetting properly Training Actively watching for officers showing patterns of behaviour Investigating the masses of complaints of mistreatment esp around racism, misogyny, homophobia etc. Doing it in a timely way. PROSECUTING when crime has been committed and there is evidence. Not taking years and then reprimanding, training, very occasionally sacking. Why the hell don't they treat it as criminal? That's their whole job FFS. I'll postv some stats and an example in a sec. Not closing ranks covering up. Couzens had past reports to police for indecent exposure. Known by colleagues as the rapist. There's more I think not read today. Something about violent porn. A police officer. They should be held to HIGHER standards not lower! Fucks sake. How about an anon method for officers to report concerning behaviour/ misconduct etc?

I mean there is stacks they can do if they want. Many more things than that I'm sure. That's just off the top of my head.

Both this year. I remembered them- I don't follow this in particular so may well be more similar.

Met- Met Police investigate allegations two female officers were raped by a colleague

inews.co.uk/news/uk/met-police-allegations-female-officers-raped-by-colleague-938289

Hampshire-

www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/crime/portsmouth-police-officer-who-held-scissors-close-to-female-colleagues-face-is-banned-from-service-after-being-found-guilty-of-misconduct-3265517

Met- 'The Met need to get a grip’: 160 Met Police officers accused of sexual misconduct in two years

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/metropolitan-police-sexual-misconduct-allegations-b1889384.html

It's a disaster. And it's a massive problem. And they just don't do anything about it, not really.

Yes there is so much in the way the police treat different victims. Problem is we don't hear about the vast majority of rapes and even murders in the news. The media are in this too.

Yes definitely agree about the media point.

I completely agree that the police should be held to higher standards & off course improvements can be made re getting, training, harsher punishment when misconduct has happened.

I meant more from a wider view, society is sexist, the media is sexist, institutions are sexist. I don't think we can eliminate it unless we start really looking at society as it's so insidious.

Totally agree re society, choixx.

Thing is that women all over the world have been drawing attention to, producing stats on, shouting about, pleading even. For so long. And change is incredibly slow if it happens at all. And things can go backwards again even after seemingly improved.

To change social views is needed obv but trying to shift them in order to make things better in eg the police is going to take forever.

Thinking back. Two things in my life that have been changed really fast.

1. Drink driving. It was really common. The limit used to be so you could have a couple or similar anyway. It was common esp with men to stretch that to 3 or 4 or more. They'd say oh it's only a short drive. There's hardly any traffic at this time. Can't leave car here need it tomorrow. Etc. Totally normal.

Stats, and campaigns. Lot of people saying it's not right. Changed really quickly to it being seen by vast majority as a total no-no.

Smoking inside pubs etc.
Really fucked a lot of people off when banned. It had been the norm their whole lives. If growing up in 60s etc, pretty much everyone smoked. When I was a girl you could smoke in the banks! On the bus to work. On the tube!!!
Now that seems repulsive even to the vast majority of smokers.
How was that done? Not thought about it before. Stats on passive smoking. The many who hated smoking indoors were given backup to express how they felt and to express it. Irl, on telly, media. That change was really massive in terms of shifting a long standing norm. Drinking and smoking in the pub was a beloved traditional thing. Boom, gone.

yes good examples of things that have changed.

I'm just sick of it though, sick of being less then, not that it makes it ok but we are not a minority so why have we been conditioned to put up with this shit. I don't want to wait, I want things to change now & instead we are bogged down with not even been able to use the word women!!!

Meanwhile the police are a service paid for by the public purse. They exist (theoretically) to uphold the law. To protect the public. Their approach is meant to be factual. Unbiased. To investigate reports of criminal behaviour.

So we pay them and they fail the very fundamentals.

And thinking about it that's a good point. We should NOT feel so powerless. We are half the population. We are not having crimes that are usually committed against women and girls dealt with. Why are we paying them? As half the population if we as group really say enough is enough. By um not sure. Then it should be fucking listened to.

But it's not. Not really by govt (lip service) and therefore not by of the criminal justice orgs. The indifference is through the system.

The only way to get heard is by making real impact. I can't see us doing that either. We're conditioned not to make a fuss, disregarded if we express anger, plus there's the school run, looking after grandpa, working, keeping households ticking over.

I would love to march. I mean nationally. I massive female protest across the country. I think millions of women would turn out.

Sorry got side tracked.

The police have standards, hierarchy, accountability to the govt and the public. They have vetting, systems in place. Etc. Institutions can be turned around with effort and determination. Way more easily than the whole of society.

I would love to march. I mean nationally. I massive female protest across the country. I think millions of women would turn out.

We need to do this

Yes we do.

What, how? I mean I'm serious. I'll help organise in whatever way I can. I have no experience. And it needs to be across the whole UK, something most women will be able to attend. Incredibly well publicised.

If organised, I have no doubt women will come in massive numbers.

Omg news BBC just looked top story.

Met police advice includes-

'Among the suggestions, it said women should flag down a bus if they have concerns when stopped by an officer.'

Buses won't stop it flagged down what the hell?!
What if you're not on a bus route? Or there isn't a bus coming?!

Scotland yard
'Scotland Yard has also issued advice to people who are detained by lone plain-clothes officers.

This includes asking "searching questions" about why they are being stopped and where the officer has come from.

People should ask to speak to an operator on a police radio to verify the answers, the force said.

If someone feels they are in "real and imminent danger" they are advised to "seek assistance" by shouting to passers-by, waving down a bus or calling 999.'

Well that's all totally bonkers. For s list of reasons but I won't write them all down unless anyone interested!

@NiceGerbil

Yes we do.

What, how? I mean I'm serious. I'll help organise in whatever way I can. I have no experience. And it needs to be across the whole UK, something most women will be able to attend. Incredibly well publicised.

If organised, I have no doubt women will come in massive numbers.

I'd absolutely be up for this.

Re The advice . Walk to the nearest police station ????? That's about 6 miles !