Campaigners lose abortion fight

[EmeraldRaine]

Heidi Crowter and a few others were campaigning to remove the right for women to choose abortion if their baby was found to be affected by Downs syndrome. These campaigners feel that women shouldn't have the right to terminate a pregnancy because the foetus has Downs Syndrome, because it discriminates against people with Downs syndrome.

Cant help but think that this was a victory for common sense. Downs syndrome like every other disability is different from person to person and lots of people would feel unable to cope with a child with a lifelong disability. To say that isn't discriminating against disabled people. The only person who has the right to choose in every single case, is the woman who is pregnant. Perhaps these campaigners would be better off campaiging for better support for disabled people and their carers than trying to remove women's rights to make decisions that are best for them.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-58662846

@AmDillDandin

What, even if there is no real reason? Really?

I'd say a woman wanting to avoid having to give birth to a child she doesn't want is a pretty compelling reason

I’m absolutely with you 👏🏻

@AmDillDandin

What, even if there is no real reason? Really?

I'd say a woman wanting to avoid having to give birth to a child she doesn't want is a pretty compelling reason

Absolutely. As early as possible, as late as necessary.

@NameChanged15729 - I don’t see it as relating to the value of people with DS. It’s about whether women have the choice as to whether they become the mothers of children with DS.

@Samcro

abortion should be available up to birth. problem solved.

Jesus. I'm 30 weeks and can feel my baby kicking away, he can hear and see light. I feel sick at the thought of aborting a baby at 39/40 weeks.

I believe in women having a choice but not after a certain point. Like, to the point just before birth seems too much imo even the 23 weeks I'm not so comfortable with...maybe 20 weeks.

It's tricky.

I agree with the OP that this is a welcome outcome.

I'm not convinced by the argument that there is no need for the limit to be lowered to 24 weeks for Down's babies because a) if that's the case then what negative impact does lowering the limit have and b) if it is indeed a matter of principle rather than practical outcome then let the principle (that Down's babies have the same right to life as any other baby) stand.

The post-24wk limit exists because its not always possible to reach a decision prior to this in cases where further testing is needed or where a woman might need time to think through the various options.

For example, Barbara goes to her 20wk scan at 20+5 and the sonographer can't get a good view of the full anatomy. She gets an appointment to be rescanned in two weeks time when the baby is slightly bigger and will have hopefully changed position. Along she goes at 22+5 and the scan shows a potential problem. She has a follow up appointment a few days later at 23+3 for a more in-depth scan and further testing. The results are back really quickly and she has an appointment at 23+6 where the consultant informs her that the baby has

Forced birth is abhorrent. In all circumstances. Equally, no woman should be forced to have an abortion under any circumstances. And that’s it as far as I’m concerned.

What, even if there is no real reason? Really?.. I understand how you feel BUT if a woman at 37 weeks decides she wants an abortion, speaks to the relevant people and goes ahead with it, what do you think would happen if she wasn't allowed? Do you think she'd say ah OK, I actually will find a way to support us, give us a secure home, love it etc? Or will it be a newborn dumped in an alleyway or neglected in plain sight for years? Taken into care and shunted between accommodation for years?

Forced birth is abhorrent. In all circumstances. Equally, no woman should be forced to have an abortion under any circumstances. And that’s it as far as I’m concerned.

Yup.

I'm pro-choice which means I support the right for Woman A to choose an abortion and for Woman B to choose not to have an abortion. The point in both cases is that she has a choice.

TheAntiGardener I understand that side of the argument as well and I like to think that most terminations due to Down syndrome are carried out earlier than 24 weeks. I find it difficult to think of a termination that’s solely based on the potential child not having the correct genetics. It seems wholly unequal to me.

As much as it’s unlikely to happen, maybe the best solution is for all terminations to be available up until term. Therefore there can be no argument for discriminatory factors and is fully based on the women’s choice on whether she wants to become a mother to any baby.

Less than 0.1% of all abortions performed in 2019 were over 24 weeks

The highest number of these occurred in the age group 35+ which would suggest the correlation between the procedure and higher risk of life incompatible trisomies many of which are not finally diagnosed some weeks after dating scans or even anomaly scans.

We are talking about a tiny minority of women in this situation.
Given that any procedure over 24 weeks requires the agreement and consent of 2 Doctors then it’s my view that the combining of actual statistics and eligibility means we should all mind our own business. On that basis I believe the right decision was made in Court.

Women should always have full autonomy over their own body to make the decisions they feel is right for them

I find it difficult to think of a termination that’s solely based on the potential child not having the correct genetics. It seems wholly unequal to me.

It's not just about the wrong genetics though. Raising a child is hard, raising a disabled child is even harder and it impacts every part of family life not just the child.

@NameChanged15729 I totally agree - as the parent of a dc with down syndrome I initially supported this campaign, believing it to be about equality (why is it ok to abort a baby with down syndrome after 24 weeks but not a baby without ds?), but I now feel that we should not be risking the erosion of a woman's rights to choose in any circumstances- therefore believe the ethical thing would be to support legal abortion up until birth.

as early as possible, as late as necessary.
Im glad this campaign lost. What a hideous proposal.
The current framing of women who seek TFMR as just not liking or respecting disabled people, is cruel and unfair, especially with the current backdrop of services being removed. SEN support in schools being cut. Loads of peoples respite care has been cut. Its hardly a walk in the fuckin park out there for parents of disabled kids. The very bottom line is that the parents should be prepared and WANT to do this.
I remember watching a video by that comedian woman who used to be on Smack the pony, arguing that even getting testing at all, with the tests now being available for 12 weeks was unfair to people with down syndrome.

There are less than a hundred abortions each year after 24 weeks in the UK, from the evidence presented in court all of those cases were either foetuses which could not have survived on their own even with medical intervention, or cases where the mother would not have survived the remainder of the pregnancy

The campaigners could note cite one case in the last decade where a foetus had been aborted after the 24 week limit because of Downs syndrome, although some with Downs were aborted because of other, unsurvivable conditions

Exactly. This case and the backing behind it was about chipping away at abortion rights.

I remember watching a video by that comedian woman who used to be on Smack the pony, arguing that even getting testing at all, with the tests now being available for 12 weeks was unfair to people with down syndrome.

Sally Phillips? Yeah I think that’s awful, even if she doesn’t agree with abortion, taking away even the information horrible.

@Branleuse

as early as possible, as late as necessary. Im glad this campaign lost. What a hideous proposal. The current framing of women who seek TFMR as just not liking or respecting disabled people, is cruel and unfair, especially with the current backdrop of services being removed. SEN support in schools being cut. Loads of peoples respite care has been cut. Its hardly a walk in the fuckin park out there for parents of disabled kids. The very bottom line is that the parents should be prepared and WANT to do this. I remember watching a video by that comedian woman who used to be on Smack the pony, arguing that even getting testing at all, with the tests now being available for 12 weeks was unfair to people with down syndrome.

I completely agree

As they’re viable, at that point I personally think it is murder. The mother could opt at that point for adoption. Better adopted than dead

Better for who?

A foetus in the womb does not know what is coming. It doesn't have the cognitive ability to visualise what is coming or what they will subsequently miss out on.

You would be ending a pregnancy instead of putting an unwanted child into the care system.

So.....better for who?

Full judgment is here:

www.judiciary.uk/judgments/crowter-v-secretary-of-state-for-health-and-social-care/

I am very relieved they lost.

Their arguments were mostly around the human rights of the foetus, including the right to life and the right not to be discriminated against.

Whatever your views on abortion, ascribing personhood and human rights to foetuses is a massive deal that leads to a very dark place:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/04/marshae-jones-alabama-fetal-rights-alarmed

www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v40/n10/sally-rooney/an-irish-problem

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/hast.791

The judge rightly ruled that while a foetus may have interests it does not have personhood or human rights.

The other part of their argument was that having a different time limit for terminating foetuses that would have a disability indirectly discriminates against all disabled people, because it implies that disabled people's lives are worth less, and that this affects public attitudes generally.

I have some sympathy with this part of their argument, however I agree with the judge who dismissed this claim because the current law is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Does anyone remember the woman in the paper a few years ago who said if she had known her child had Downs Syndrome, she would have had an abortion? It sounds cold and callous, until you read her story, about how she’d dedicated her life to care for him for 50 years, the impact on her life, her relationships, watching her son suffer every day, worrying about what would happen to him when she and her husband die. I do think it’s important that we remember what a big ask it can be of parents. It should never just be expected that anyone would take it on.

@Clocktopus

Forced birth is abhorrent. In all circumstances. Equally, no woman should be forced to have an abortion under any circumstances. And that’s it as far as I’m concerned.

Yup.

I'm pro-choice which means I support the right for Woman A to choose an abortion and for Woman B to choose not to have an abortion. The point in both cases is that she has a choice.

Agree.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

I should also add - it was very clear that she loved her son.

As early as possible, as late as needed. For any reason.

Women should not be forced to carry an foetus to term for any reason.

There are many people who have a vested interest in pushing back abortion rights.

The problem I have with the campaign is that they present the absolute best case scenario for Downs Syndrome. It’s like…how could you abort these happy smiley people who love life but just happen to be slightly shorter and with almond shaped eyes.

Well no. Aside from the much higher chances of other conditions in childhood - sight, hearing, heart defects, impaired immunity, epilepsy, leukaemia, it absolutely broke my heart to read about the ways in which adults are affected later in life. Conditions that weren’t known about until recently as the current generation of adults with Down’s syndrome are the first to have consistently lived this long.

Depression and anxiety is very common in adulthood. By age 40, almost all adults have significant levels of beta-amyloid plaques and tau tangles in the brain, abnormal protein deposits considered Alzheimer's hallmarks. And around 50% will go on to develop dementia. It’s tragic.

We should have less restrictions, not more.

I'm glad this didn't go through.

It isn't a personal attack on anyone that someone doesn't feel able to carry a pregnancy to term for any reason, including being unable to cope with a child who has disabilities.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.