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Gravestone dilemma

76 replies

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 17/08/2021 23:54

Sorry, this will be a long one, but I have something of a dilemma wrt a gravestone. I didn't like to 'crash' the bereavement topic, as it's a more pragmatic situation rather than an emotional/supportive one.

Note: all names have been changed and a few immaterial details obscured/amended.

My elderly family member (Mavis) died late last year and, as the standard ‘settling’ time for the grave is now approaching, at some point soon, I need (and want) to arrange for the grave inscription to include her. However, I don’t know the best way to go about it and I wondered if you lovely MNers might be able to make any wise suggestions and give your opinions on how you think I should proceed.

Sadly, Mavis had a daughter (Laura) who died when she was very young. Laura was buried in what would become the ‘family’ plot and her parents (Mavis and her DH Albert) arranged for a very heavy and ornate headstone and surround, paying loving tribute to her, in the style of the time.

Several decades later, Albert died. Laura’s grave stonework had sadly crumbled, become all broken up and was far beyond repair/re-use. All of the pieces had to be completely removed and taken away to be disposed of, to enable Albert to be buried in the grave, as organised by Mavis.

Mavis arranged for a (very different – much more contemporary-style) new replacement headstone to be installed (with no surround), in due course following Albert’s burial. She added several lines of kind words in tribute to Albert and put a brief summary of the family names and relationships, which means that her name is actually mentioned twice on there. The only problem is that she didn’t leave any space on the new stone for the acknowledgement of her own death and burial in the grave, nor obviously her birth and death dates. The whole of the stone itself is filled up with writing (and a meaningful symbol at the top), but it sits upon a blank plinth of the same colour.

Mavis and Albert also had another DD (Emily), who predeceased them both, but she did grow up, marry and have children herself (adult, both still living), and she is buried in a separate grave, together with her own DH, who also died not too long after her.

Anyway, the writing on the gravestone is the equivalent of what follows:

LAURA JOHNSON
(Laura’s dates)
Much loved daughter of
Mavis and Albert Johnson
Also ALBERT
(Albert’s dates)
Loving father to Laura
Cherished husband of Mavis
(a few lines of personal tribute to Albert)
Also loving father
to the late Emily

Now, in an ideal world, she would have left enough space on the bottom for her own details to be added when the time came, and I would then have no need to be asking this at all, but for whatever reasons, she didn’t do that. Maybe she didn’t want to think about it (she was very reluctant to make a will, even at an advanced age, as she thought that doing so would tempt fate and she would die soon after as a direct result of having made the will). Maybe she thought it unnecessary, as she is already mentioned on there and didn’t want any ‘fuss’, but I would like her presence there to be acknowledged and her dates to appear as well. I also believe that, as well as primarily for the family, as time passes, grave inscriptions are also there as a mark in history and I want it to be accurate, for future generations of cemetery-visitors to see. She did have some MH issues, but she was also very astute and I certainly don’t believe that she just didn’t think about it.

As I see it, I have six options:
A: Leave the stone exactly as it is – no acknowledgment of the fact of her passing or her dates
B: Add her name and dates on the plinth – seems quite disrespectful, as if she’s an afterthought and obviously no room for a similar amount of personal tributes as for Albert
C: Add her name, dates and lines of tribute on the back of the stone – again, seems disrespectful and separates her from her DH and DD - and easily goes unnoticed/forgotten, as people don't expect writing on the back
D: Add a second stone in a similar style, to sit alongside the other one – seems unbalanced with three names on the left and just one on the right, and would probably look awkward and a bit overwrought
E: Add a stone ‘accessory’ in the same colour, such as a substantial square flower holder/urn, with her name and dates on – again, seems a bit divisive and ‘separates’ her from her DH and young DD
F: Replace the whole stone with a bigger one in the same colour and style and copy all of the existing wording, but with her name, dates and similar-length tributes at the bottom – this seems the obvious solution, but part of me feels that the stone has already had to be replaced once and this is the exact replacement she chose herself after being widowed (and her renewed tribute to her DD) and hasn't been there all that long; plus (and this might be a slightly weird thing to ponder), what would happen with the existing stone that she lovingly chose and had specially commissioned? Would it just be destroyed or thrown out?
Or G: Something else???

All suggestions and thoughts greatly appreciated. She lived to a fine old age and we weren’t immensely close, so I’m sad but not grief-stricken; but I really want to find the most practical solution to provide the most appropriate memorial and tribute to a much-loved lady. Feel free to give a lengthy considered opinion, just say the above letter of what you would do or anything else/in between!

Many thanks in advance to anybody who is still reading – sorry it was so long.

OP posts:
Saintemllionsfinest · 17/08/2021 23:58

I don’t see anything wrong with her inscription being on the plinth or a large accessory. in my opinion it’s not an after thought, surely an after thought is doing nothing! Everyone can see the graves inscription is full. I don’t think you should change what she had already wanted placed there for her husband and daughter.

Babyroobs · 18/08/2021 00:01

I would say D with an acknowledgement that she was wife and mum of the others. I would not replace the whole stone, it would be wasteful and unecessary.

LimeSodaTwist · 18/08/2021 00:03

I would get a new stone and / or speak to a stonemason as they may have other ideas and have probably come across similar situations.

Are there other family members that need to be consulted, though? You mention Emily had two children.

Rainallnight · 18/08/2021 00:08

People do not think through the space implications on a family headstone!

My dad was recently buried in his family plot and there is only just enough space for his brief details. And he’s not even the last one in there! There’s space for about four more people.

Anyway, in your case, I would do D or E. probably E but making sure it’s nice and substantial.

In yet another family plot in my family, a couple of people are on ‘add on’ stone plaques sitting on the grave itself, for the same reasons as Mavis. Because they’re so small, they just look like a bit of an afterthought, like a Post It. I’m sure a good stone mason/headstone company will have good ideas.

Babyroobs · 18/08/2021 00:09

Just done a quick Google and it seems like a headstone could possible be extended/ raised on a base which could create more space for additional inscription. As above I would speak to a stonemason, it must be a common problem. thinking about my mums headstone I 'm not sure there is room for my dads name when he goes to the same plot.

Bonmonkhouse · 18/08/2021 00:12

I would get a new stone, and use your own wording to say who is there.

This is what my family did anyway.

Lockdownbear · 18/08/2021 00:12

I'd speak with an ornamental Mason but I think I'd go with options B or E.
Using either the plinth or adding something.

Being predeceased by her children is bound to have taken its toll on her MH. Poor lady.

HunkyPunk · 18/08/2021 00:17

I'm sure I've seen graves in the cemetery where my parents are buried, which have the original headstone, then an additional smaller memorial stone in the shape of, say, a book, with the person's details on, at the foot of the grave. I suppose it depends on whether the grave has any sort of enclosure, or is just a headstone with grass?

I don't think it would look like an afterthought as she was the last to go, and had not left space on the main stone for herself.

Lockdownbear · 18/08/2021 00:20

I definitely wouldn't completely replace the stone she choose for her DH and DD. If it came to it I would consider a bigger plinth.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 18/08/2021 00:20

A foot stone with Mavis' details on would work.

FlorenceNightshade · 18/08/2021 00:23

I’d probably get a smaller stone to sit in front or to the side of the main one with her details on it. She obviously planned out the main stone and it meant something to her. The main thing is she isn’t forgotten by her family and they cared enough to acknowledge her passing on a stone

NoSquirrels · 18/08/2021 00:29

I’d be thinking E.

Considering our ‘family’ plots, it’s a weird one. There are no excellent solutions- we have a mishmash of styles/inscriptions, ornamental additions, ‘unfinished’ headstones where due to circumstances the intended person was never added after their death.

Given that your deceased relative’s name is mentioned twice on the existing headstone, with relationships to the previous deceased, either the plinth or a chunky grave marker/flower urn would fulfill the ‘historical continuity’ aspect, and the other consideration- being separated from her family - is more of an emotional reaction from you. She was separated from them - in death/life. It’s OK to reflect that. It’s not a comment on how loved she was.

Floralnomad · 18/08/2021 00:34

I think E is the best solution , the book idea mentioned by a pp is a good idea in a similar theme .

housecoat1968 · 18/08/2021 00:35

E

WindyRose · 18/08/2021 00:36

I think a foot stone would work too. While I am not affiliated with either billiongraves.com or findagrave.com I transcribe headstone photos on both sites and quite often a foot stone or plinth has been added, so I suggest have a look at either (or both) sites by searching a cemetery.

I'm not in the UK but a few weeks ago I was transcribing photos in some of your cemeteries and there was a particular stonemason who does some really lovely work and unlike others I have seen. Again, I have NO affiliation but did keep a link to their website stoneletters.com/our-work

Just one other thought to keep in mind, is that some cemeteries only allow usage of the gravesites for anywhere from 25-100 years, at which time they are re-sold and re-used so I don't know if that would have a bearing on a decision, but it might be worth checking with council or whoever manages cemeteries in your area.

Hope some of this helps?

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 18/08/2021 00:38

Thank you very much, All, for your very valued input. I'll take time to more carefully read through very slowly and try to visualise your suggestions.

Talking to a stonemason is a very good idea, actually - I can't be the first person to have this situation.

Actually, thinking back, the grave stone/surround when it was just for Laura wouldn't have had any room to add Albert's details anyway, even if it had survived intact. I can well see how, for two distraught bereaved parents in their twenties, planning for their own burials would have been the very last thing on their minds; but I was just a bit surprised when Mavis hadn't (apparently) obviously borne in mind her own eventual death and burial inscription when replacing the stone, having just been widowed in her eighties.

Are there other family members that need to be consulted, though? You mention Emily had two children.

I am one of Emily's children - my sibling and I get on very well indeed, but I live more locally and was closer to Mavis and, for various reasons, it has suited both my sibling and me for me to be the one leading in making the decisions and dealing with matters like this Smile

OP posts:
Chloemol · 18/08/2021 00:41

First of all before you go looking can I suggest you contact the cemetery. Only the plot holder can sort a memorial stone out. If Mavis owned the plot, which I assume she did then it forms part of her estate and needs to be transferred into her next of kin/executor/administrators name. Then you sort the memorial

As regards the memorial itself either a bigger replacement one, or see if they will allow a tablet one on the grave. Again you need to check the cemetery rules and regulations that will detail what you can and can’t do, and they will normally need to give permission, it’s highly unlikely two headstones would be allowed. Until you know what’s actually allowed there is no point on your list

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 18/08/2021 00:43

Being predeceased by her children is bound to have taken its toll on her MH. Poor lady.

Yes, indeed - she lived a very long life, but also a very sad one in many respects.

OP posts:
Galassia · 18/08/2021 00:46

I like the book idea. It’s not an afterthought but a lovely idea of remembrance that links them all together. The reader would note the dates of the daughter and father on the headstone and then be drawn to the book where they will see that Mavis died after them both.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 18/08/2021 00:47

Windy having used Findagrave a fair bit, that's where my suggestion came from. Thanks to you and your fellow volunteers.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 18/08/2021 01:26

First of all before you go looking can I suggest you contact the cemetery. Only the plot holder can sort a memorial stone out. If Mavis owned the plot, which I assume she did then it forms part of her estate and needs to be transferred into her next of kin/executor/administrators name. Then you sort the memorial

I am now the registered 'owner' of the plot, so no issues there, but yes, I will ensure that everything is fine with the cemetery before going ahead with anything. It's a council plot rather than a churchyard, where I've heard some vicars can be a little 'territorial' and ultra precise in what they will or will not allow. There are already other graves there with additional pots and built-in 'accessories', so I don't think it would be a problem, though.

Thinking more about it, I'm going to rule out A and C (they were never really contenders) and, unless there really is no other way allowed, also F. I'm also not that keen on B - mainly because of the limited space and the different angle that the writing would be at.

I'm really warming to E now - something in keeping, in the same colour, but complementary to the main stone, on which she is included, with her place in the family made clear. I do like the suggestion of a book - symbolically poignant for the Matriarch of her family whose passing has now wound up and closed the final chapter on her own household.

OP posts:
MaitlandGirl · 18/08/2021 01:31

My uncle is buried in the family plot with his parents and an open book was added at the base of the original gravestone. It looks lovely, not an afterthought at all and has weathered well.

Flowers
starfishmummy · 18/08/2021 01:33

Talk to a Mason. If you want to keep the original stone they may be able to gring the surface off and put everyone's details on in smaller lettering.

(We had to have a stone re-done as the Mason made a mistake and they just took a layer of stone off).

Chloemol · 18/08/2021 06:40

There are already other graves there with additional pots and built-in 'accessories', so I don't think it would be a problem, though

This may have changed as rules and regs change over time. We don’t allow curbing anymore, or certain memorials, or foot stones, all there in older parts of the cemetery, andwehave some graves that have this but newer ones for other family members that are not allowed the same now

WindyRose · 18/08/2021 07:45

PastMyBestBeforeDate Actually I use both sites a fair bit too and had requested grave photos for relatives who I know are buried long distances from where I live, so my way of repaying the favour was to transcribe photos posted by other volunteers.

Not much on TV at the moment and I find it's a good way to pass a couple of hours and be productive at the same time and actually I've found it quite interesting to note the different styles of headstones in cemeteries...even those located in the next town can be completely different, then of course, other countries have varying styles too. Not something I had ever thought about in the past.