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Gravestone dilemma

76 replies

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 17/08/2021 23:54

Sorry, this will be a long one, but I have something of a dilemma wrt a gravestone. I didn't like to 'crash' the bereavement topic, as it's a more pragmatic situation rather than an emotional/supportive one.

Note: all names have been changed and a few immaterial details obscured/amended.

My elderly family member (Mavis) died late last year and, as the standard ‘settling’ time for the grave is now approaching, at some point soon, I need (and want) to arrange for the grave inscription to include her. However, I don’t know the best way to go about it and I wondered if you lovely MNers might be able to make any wise suggestions and give your opinions on how you think I should proceed.

Sadly, Mavis had a daughter (Laura) who died when she was very young. Laura was buried in what would become the ‘family’ plot and her parents (Mavis and her DH Albert) arranged for a very heavy and ornate headstone and surround, paying loving tribute to her, in the style of the time.

Several decades later, Albert died. Laura’s grave stonework had sadly crumbled, become all broken up and was far beyond repair/re-use. All of the pieces had to be completely removed and taken away to be disposed of, to enable Albert to be buried in the grave, as organised by Mavis.

Mavis arranged for a (very different – much more contemporary-style) new replacement headstone to be installed (with no surround), in due course following Albert’s burial. She added several lines of kind words in tribute to Albert and put a brief summary of the family names and relationships, which means that her name is actually mentioned twice on there. The only problem is that she didn’t leave any space on the new stone for the acknowledgement of her own death and burial in the grave, nor obviously her birth and death dates. The whole of the stone itself is filled up with writing (and a meaningful symbol at the top), but it sits upon a blank plinth of the same colour.

Mavis and Albert also had another DD (Emily), who predeceased them both, but she did grow up, marry and have children herself (adult, both still living), and she is buried in a separate grave, together with her own DH, who also died not too long after her.

Anyway, the writing on the gravestone is the equivalent of what follows:

LAURA JOHNSON
(Laura’s dates)
Much loved daughter of
Mavis and Albert Johnson
Also ALBERT
(Albert’s dates)
Loving father to Laura
Cherished husband of Mavis
(a few lines of personal tribute to Albert)
Also loving father
to the late Emily

Now, in an ideal world, she would have left enough space on the bottom for her own details to be added when the time came, and I would then have no need to be asking this at all, but for whatever reasons, she didn’t do that. Maybe she didn’t want to think about it (she was very reluctant to make a will, even at an advanced age, as she thought that doing so would tempt fate and she would die soon after as a direct result of having made the will). Maybe she thought it unnecessary, as she is already mentioned on there and didn’t want any ‘fuss’, but I would like her presence there to be acknowledged and her dates to appear as well. I also believe that, as well as primarily for the family, as time passes, grave inscriptions are also there as a mark in history and I want it to be accurate, for future generations of cemetery-visitors to see. She did have some MH issues, but she was also very astute and I certainly don’t believe that she just didn’t think about it.

As I see it, I have six options:
A: Leave the stone exactly as it is – no acknowledgment of the fact of her passing or her dates
B: Add her name and dates on the plinth – seems quite disrespectful, as if she’s an afterthought and obviously no room for a similar amount of personal tributes as for Albert
C: Add her name, dates and lines of tribute on the back of the stone – again, seems disrespectful and separates her from her DH and DD - and easily goes unnoticed/forgotten, as people don't expect writing on the back
D: Add a second stone in a similar style, to sit alongside the other one – seems unbalanced with three names on the left and just one on the right, and would probably look awkward and a bit overwrought
E: Add a stone ‘accessory’ in the same colour, such as a substantial square flower holder/urn, with her name and dates on – again, seems a bit divisive and ‘separates’ her from her DH and young DD
F: Replace the whole stone with a bigger one in the same colour and style and copy all of the existing wording, but with her name, dates and similar-length tributes at the bottom – this seems the obvious solution, but part of me feels that the stone has already had to be replaced once and this is the exact replacement she chose herself after being widowed (and her renewed tribute to her DD) and hasn't been there all that long; plus (and this might be a slightly weird thing to ponder), what would happen with the existing stone that she lovingly chose and had specially commissioned? Would it just be destroyed or thrown out?
Or G: Something else???

All suggestions and thoughts greatly appreciated. She lived to a fine old age and we weren’t immensely close, so I’m sad but not grief-stricken; but I really want to find the most practical solution to provide the most appropriate memorial and tribute to a much-loved lady. Feel free to give a lengthy considered opinion, just say the above letter of what you would do or anything else/in between!

Many thanks in advance to anybody who is still reading – sorry it was so long.

OP posts:
WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 18/08/2021 14:31

Can you fit in her dates next to one of the two times that she is already mentioned?

No, there's nowhere it would reasonably fit, without being tiny and looking really odd indeed.

When my OH died last year we had a lovely gravestone made (cost an arm and a leg!) and made sure there was room for my details when the time comes. I was fine with that - but a bit gobsmacked when the undertaker asked if the grave should be dug as a "double-decker"!!

It's a very valid and important question, though - just comes at a really bad time for you personally, as most of us don't buy plots in advance but only come to do so when we've just lost a loved one. I suppose it takes more effort and costs more (maybe needing more site surveys/underpinning?) to dig a grave deeper, so they have to know the maximum number of people who will be laid there before the first person is interred.

Although they were grieving and in their twenties at the time, Mavis and Albert (wisely imho) decided to go for a 4-person grave, to ensure that their family could all be buried together if necessary. As it happened, Emily had the opportunity to grow up, marry and have her own DC, so she is buried elsewhere with her DH; but how very much more harrowing would it be to lose (or potentially lose) your young children and then, on top of everything else, realise that they can't be buried with you.

OP posts:
QueenHofScotland · 18/08/2021 14:41

I would add a small stone in front - sorry I don’t know the name of it formally. But an additional item with her name and dates

starfishmummy · 18/08/2021 14:43

When my OH died last year we had a lovely gravestone made (cost an arm and a leg!) and made sure there was room for my details when the time comes. I was fine with that - but a bit gobsmacked when the undertaker asked if the grave should be dug as a "double-decker"!!

If you want to be buried there then yes this is important.

Of course you can be added to the stone without being buried there. I discovered this doing my family tree. Ancestors grave gives his wife's name and dates with the addition that she "is buried in xxx cemetery).

Lockdownbear · 18/08/2021 15:22

I'd be a bit gobsmacked at the terminology as well, I'd expect the question to be asked as 'how many layers would you like in the plot?'

Double - decker sounds like informal undertaker speak but not what I'd expect a grieving person to be asked.

HoppingPavlova · 18/08/2021 15:54

I would go option B.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 18/08/2021 16:03

Double - decker sounds like informal undertaker speak but not what I'd expect a grieving person to be asked.

Yes - however they refer to it informally between themselves, you'd expect them to ask the (usually grieving) customer how many people in total are eventually intended to be laid to rest there, or similar.

OP posts:
memememe · 18/08/2021 16:45

is it possible to add her dates after where is says "cherished husband of mavis (dates)

if not then id add a flower pot or book with her dates and name on. will you or your sibling want to be buried there as there is room for one more? as it might be worth making sure there is space for further writing.

SunshineCake · 18/08/2021 17:14

I have seen many graves with further occupants details added to the plinth. I think it is okay and definitely better than being missed out completely.

My grandmother died and the fact she was a great grandmother wasn't out on for awful reasons. It would upset me but I just have to not think about it. The GGC are my children of course.

SunshineCake · 18/08/2021 17:21

@WindyRose can I ask a question please about what you've said re photographs of grave stones?

WindyRose · 19/08/2021 02:36

SunshineCake Sure, go ahead, hopefully I can give some info, but I am far from an expert...just fell into this while researching family history. If you'd prefer not to post in the forum, then a PM is OK.

SunshineCake · 19/08/2021 06:59

Thank you @WindyRose. I have sent you a PM.

SoupDragon · 19/08/2021 07:33

I wouldn't use a flower holder. I always think they look sad when they have nothing in them.

Soontobe60 · 19/08/2021 07:45

We had a similar issue with my father. We spoke to the stonemason and he ended up completely redoing the original stone, same writing, but smaller, and with room for adding my father on.

Bobmonkfish · 19/08/2021 08:04

I'd also speak to the stonemason. We have had one done recently and there were rules we didn't know about and our original thoughts changed.

CormoranStrike · 19/08/2021 08:12

I would use the reverse myself.

Lockdownbear · 19/08/2021 09:30

@CormoranStrike

I would use the reverse myself.
I'd be loathed to do that, I've never read the back of a headstone ever. Unless you were looking at the row behind nobody would notice it. It's like your trying to hide something.
WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 19/08/2021 10:53

is it possible to add her dates after where is says "cherished husband of mavis (dates)

Unfortunately not, without squeezing it in really tiny and making it look very odd.

if not then id add a flower pot or book with her dates and name on. will you or your sibling want to be buried there as there is room for one more? as it might be worth making sure there is space for further writing.

No, we definitely won't be buried there - we live elsewhere and have our own families now, so we'll be part of new chapters, when it comes to our final resting places. It was originally specified as a 4-person grave, with provision for Emily, had she needed it, but she grew up and married, so she is actually now buried elsewhere with her DH.

OP posts:
WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 19/08/2021 11:09

I just can't feel comfortable with using the reverse of the stone, either. There's nothing inherently wrong about using it - it just seems (to me) to be 'othering' the person whose name is alone on the back - plus, as has been said, nobody deliberately looks at the back of the stone.

Some masons add their own small stamp at the bottom on the back, when they'd never dream of putting it on the front - I see it as incidental information that you may go searching for rather than being proudly on view. I'd hate the idea of one side basically saying "Mavis Johnson, beloved wife, 1st Jan 1931 - 31st Dec 2019, Premier Memorials 01234 567890".

I see a gravestone maybe as an 'ordinary' person's equivalent of a prominent figure's blue plaque. Blue plaques are always given pride of place on the front, near the main entrance to the building that was their birth place (or whatever), where everybody passing by will notice it - never above the back door where nobody except the current residents will see it on their way into the garden.

OP posts:
WorkingItOutAsIGo · 19/08/2021 11:16

What a beautiful and thoughtful thread and I just wanted to offer my condolences on your own many losses, and hope your and your sister’s new chapters are joyful.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 19/08/2021 12:28

Thank you so much for your extremely kind words, WorkingItOutAsIGo - that means a lot to me and is greatly appreciated Flowers

OP posts:
Mummyratbag · 19/08/2021 12:40

As someone who is sort of in your grandmother's position, I would rather go unmentioned on the stone rather than have the stone I chose for my child (baby) disturbed. I know that this sort of thing is for those left behind rather than me though.

I'm horrified by the 30 year lease - I think that it should be long enough for the deceased not to be in living memory by anyone! 100 years plus should do it!

Lockdownbear · 19/08/2021 13:27

I'm horrified by the 30 year lease - I think that it should be long enough for the deceased not to be in living memory by anyone! 100 years plus should do it!

That's exactly how I feel. I'd go a bit further so the next generation aren't affected either. I know people who lost a parent in childhood and who were really hit by it when they became parents so take their children to the grandparents grave.

I know a 90 year old who still has the occasional visit to her parents grave.
30 years is really cruel.
Parents expect to see their kids to much older than 30, people are widowed longer than just 30 years.

Mummyratbag · 19/08/2021 14:18

Lockdownbear indeed. We lost our child and went on to have 2 more.. 100 years on from when we lost our baby my youngest will be early 90s so although I don't expect them to visit the grave I'm sure they would be upset to have it removed! I said 100 + but really they need to be 150 minimum :(

Lockdownbear · 19/08/2021 14:40

Sorry to hear about your baby. That sort of grief never leaves you. Flowers Parents never forget their children.

Mummyratbag · 19/08/2021 14:42

Thank you it really doesn't. I just hope the grave is never removed, but at least if it was 150 years down the line I will be long gone.