Oh Prince Andrew is getting SUED by Virginia Robert's

[LaurieFairyCake]

That will be interesting

@HopeMumsnet

Hi all, Thanks to those posters who have reported any rape myths to us. We just wanted to take this opportunity to flag up our We Believe You campaign, it might be helpful to introduce those who are so far unfamiliar to the issues at stake.

‘We Believe You’ was dealt a blow by the hysterical insistence on MN that Carl Beech was indeed the victim of a Westminster paedophile ring. Turned out that the paedophile was actually Carl himself.

PA is awful, though.

And it makes me feel sick that people don’t realise that girls of 17 are not in way mature enough to ‘sign up’ for sexual services.

Thank you HopeMN

Hopefully some of the posters on this thread will actually FOLLOW that link and educate themselves.

Some of the rape apologist comments here are genuinely distressing to read.

The victim blamers / rape apologists pop up on various threads - I recognise a couple of names. I wonder if MNHQ might start giving them warnings or strikes? They really are sickening.

@DeeCeeCherry

Out of Court settlement.

I really fail to see how the RF are still respected when the Queen covers for her odious favourite son. Sweaty, entitled creep

Can I ask (genuine question) what the RF can do? Can they force him to go to America? Or cut of him off financially if he doesn’t? I just wonder what actual powers they have in this situation over Andrew?

(By the way, that is a genuine question. I could even finish the Epstein documentary and I really hope the whole thing will be blown wide open and EVERYONE involved is revealed and then prosecuted)

I wonder if the queen thinks he's innocent, hence her protection of him, or does she think its acceptable behaviour?

I don't think it's so much this than it is about protecting the institution as a whole. Because if any of them were to come out either in his defence or otherwise publicly it would call into question the entire institution. I suppose most of them are just hoping it will blow over and we'll be back to praising their sheer dedication to shaking a few hands at charity bake sales.

Not really sure why anyone is surprised that when you choose to live in a Monarchy (as we all do) the Royal Family somehow get treated differently to anyone else.

That said, it's fascinating the mental gymnastics some will do (well fascinating and disgusting) to victim blame so they can wave their Union Jacks outside Buck House with a clear conscience.

It makes sense why Fergie has been welcomed back in to the fold.
Damage limitations.

PA was always slimy and vile.
Always had a creepy vibe from him.

VA I really hope she gets closure

I always wonder what the motivation is behind those that feel the need to post things like “what evidence is there?” And “some women lie”. What is it they are afraid of if it is true?

You get polarised and heated opinions on matters such as these because we need things to be cut and dried, with forensic-level evidence, a clear guilty/not guilty verdict.

Such things are possible. But, more often than not, in happenings such as these, they’re not. It’s in the nature of human behaviour which is nuanced, almost always operating in a gray area, with power imbalances which can change from second to second and minute to minute, with people involved having imperfect knowledge of themselves and others, and so on and so forth. In these circumstances, a court-based trial isn’t the best way to get at the truth. But we have no other way.

Personally, I think the closest we can get to the truth is by knowing the people involved and going by their actions. In my opinion, the truth of this matter, in light of Epstein’s demise, Maxwell’s subterfuge and subsequent contentions, Clinton’s excuses, Melinda Gates’s actions, and all that we DON’T know about the rest of Epstein’s circle, is that PA did the things VR accuses him of. To her, he should be punished per the law. To him, he didn’t know/ the law is stupid/ he’s above normal people anyway/ he’s a man of honour and could never “rape” anyone and therefore it doesn’t count and it would be unjust for the hammer to fall on him. And he will use everything available to him to see he doesn’t face justice, as will the people who will benefit from him being protected.

@Duckypoohs

I doubt ghislaine is even in prison

Where do you think she is then? Real life is bad enough without the conspiracy theories.

If she has such a solid case,against him, why didn't she sue when she was doing interviews in News of the World? Why is she sueing now when SoL is almost up. That sounds a bit like the last throw of the dice.

If he has knowingly broken the law, I hope she wins. If he hasn't, I hope he wins. Can British citizens even be extradited to the US for civil cases? Can civil cases be heard in absentia?

@MotionActivatedDog - The same kind of people that are posting on another thread that women are always bitchy, gossipy, malicious and jealous.
Women aren't equal to men (they claim) they're worse! Conniving and duplicitous. On this thread it's claimed they use the sex industry for their own ends ( the some girls enjoy it crap), or women who think it's fine if a partner goes to stip joints. It's to degrade girls and women, marginalise them and ensure their claims aren't believed.

@BeenThruMoreThanALilBit

Personally, I think the closest we can get to the truth is by knowing the people involved and going by their actions.

So you're saying, guilt by association? Her dad used to drop off at Epsteins every morning for work. Out of interest is she wanting him to be prosecuted for facilitation. I haven't followed the story closely so I'm not being facetious, I'm interested to know.

Teenage girls do this willingly
I find the girls do it willingly comment very problematic. This is the sort of victim blaming that went on until the Rotherham cases were taken seriously.

Young women fall between the cracks, end up in prostitution. There is a thread started yesterday about Stephen Bear and his gf, who are now all over Twitter with her sucking him off whilst he is strongly controlling her head movements. It made me wonder why she’d do this and if she was a victim of childhood abuse. It’s very common, isn’t it for abused women to be controlled by a toxic male?

So at what point do we say oh these young or youngish women are making rational choices? Because realistically their choices are based on their difficult lived experiences and skewed view of women’s role or their particular role in society. I’d argue that the women you’re talking about don’t have respect for themselves beyond their usefulness under the male gaze and what they can do to pleasure a man. So I’d say perhaps their choice is not rational whatever age.

And a 17 yo realistically doesn’t understand all of this. Perhaps VR did things ‘willingly’. But ultra privileged middle aged men really do need to take a fucking good look in the mirror. Because an abused teen / young woman being willing is not the same as understanding the implication of what she is doing and the sinister way she has been taught to view herself.

Then omg, shock horror one day she does. So let’s not victim blame please. We cannot ever know what went on in her life to lead her to this point.

@Martianworld

Not by association. We don’t have a system for getting to the truth of crimes such as rape. The reality lies in consent, which only the parties involved can attest to. Too many times it comes down to he said-she said and then it’s a question of credibility, which is nothing more than “well do I believe he is a rapist”, or “do I believe she is the victim of this crime”. Which, of course, is ridiculous. What is that other than our own misconceptions and prejudices at play. This is partly why so few rape cases ever come to trial (only partly).

Melinda Gates knows her ex-husband. So does Sarah Ferguson. One (apparently) divorced her husband because of his poor judgement in associating with Epstein. The other says her ex-husband is the most honourable man ever, notwithstanding his documented association with Epstein (which he is on record himself as not regretting). Epstein has a mass of evidence stacked up against him for financial misdemeanors and crimes, let alone crimes against the person. And many, many people with much to lose have quietly and not so quietly disassociated themselves from him. PA is known for his arrogance and hubris, Sarah Ferguson for her foolish choices and loyalty to him and the RF. Melinda Gates for her perspicacity and intelligence, Bill Gates for his ability to absorb vast quantities of complicated information and turn it into something that can be monetized.

There’s no way to get around the final reckoning being a he said-she said situation in this case, or at best a “he should have known” or “she must have known” scenario. Both imperfect. So I prefer to look at what those who know the people best do, and what they stand to lose and gain.

I don’t disbelieve VR at all. I don’t disbelieve that PA thinks he did nothing wrong, by his own code of conduct. But I don’t care for his code of conduct. The law is the law, and if he’s too arrogant to educate himself about it, that’s on him. I think he did the things VR accuses him of, which is enough for me - irrelevant if he was an arrogant, ignorant, morally vacant fool who sees himself as untouchable and therefore shouldn’t have to face justice.

Where that leaves the civil case is another question. I can’t see a way it will provide a satisfactory outcome.

Well said @Mummyoflittledragon. Agree with every word.

@ProfessorSlocombe

Not really sure why someone who is innocent needs to "settle out of court" ?

Don’t you? Presumably all the miscarriages of justice where innocent people who’ve spent years in jail have passed you by.

This isn’t one of them though. He’ll throw money at this to make it go away and if that fails his expensive, misogynist lawyers will break her in court. Very unfortunately I suspect it won’t go well for her.

@Steakandcheeseplease

Teenage girls do do this willingly. I know a young girl who was an escort and bragged about the money she made, even coming straight in to work from a night out, last nights make up still on her face. She told myself and another person about the gang sex she had and if she was tired ect, the ones that were nasty to her, the ones that were nice and she fancied.

However, I also know that she was sexually abused as a child and her way of thinking about herself and body were very very skewed. She was very vulnerable.

No one will ever know the amount of consent that was given between A and V because none of us here where there. I do believe there was sexual relations and in what ever capacity they need to be addressed because he was a much older adult in a position of responsibility and these men need to stop thinking its ok to sleep with very young women just out of childhood.

You know she was sexually abused as a child and therefore vulnerable then you say she did it willingly? Listen to yourself, what utter bullshit.

The victim blaming on this threat is absolutely disturbing and disgusting.

The victim blamers / rape apologists pop up on various threads - I recognise a couple of names. I wonder if MNHQ might start giving them warnings or strikes? They really are sickening.
That's a good idea actually.

I know it's the minority but it's disturbing how many posters seem to think that children would choose to be groomed for abuse.

@BeenThruMoreThanALilBit

Who knows why the Gates divorced. There's been speculation but no confirmation. I think they've both been quoted as saying it had been a loveless marriage for a long time. Maybe it was to do with Epstein but Melinda had known about their friendship fir a long time and she hadn't left him then.

So really to add to the he said / she said situation, we just chuck a whole lot of gossip to try to sort out who to believe. Ultimately, there's only person who can break the deadlock and that is Maxwell.

Of the two of them I would think that their sleeping together would make more of an impression on her than him so I can believe that it happened. But I'm not sure that I believe that he knew she was trafficked or underage.

But are civil cases heard in absentia? She can't settle out of court because then she'll be undermining her own credibility. I can't believe he'll give evidence. He already tried that and it did not go well. I reckon he'll try and stall til the Queen dies. He knows Charles has no time for him so he's done then anyway.

She can't settle out of court because then she'll be undermining her own credibility

I disagree. An out of court settlement would be an admission of guilt on his part.