I can’t bear him. God I just can’t

[Williesfillies]

Ex husband. Abusive. Divorce pending.
Having abused me financially so that I’ve had to go to court for finances he is now just moving onto the next thing. The. Children.

Currently he doesn’t do overnights, he is gearing up to take me to court but right now that’s how it is.

He’s seeing them this weekend. This has taken a week to arrange because he seems to have started some rule in his head that he won’t reply to me for 48 hours, so eg “can I see them x day?”
Me “yep, what time”
48 hours of total silence, until the day before at which point he will re appear and start arranging it last minute. It’s always last minute.

This week it’s over a return time, the youngest is fairly young, but I just said “what time roughly will you be dropping them off?” Which I don’t think was unreasonable, however, apparently that’s me dictating, he can’t possibly give a time, it will be whenever it is etc etc.

I would argue that I too need a life and having no time at all arranged means he can (and probably will) drop them back really early, so I can’t actually go out.

Tried setting a time ie “ok, well let’s say 7 then” which also got refused.

Eventually had to say that no time, no children and after a full day he came back with a time that is as late as possible and that he may change.

I can’t bear it. I’m a ball of anxiety and rage over this every time we have an interaction. I try to be polite, I try to say it’s for the children’s welfare, but you just can’t reason with him. He’s decided that I “won’t tell him what he’s doing” and that’s that, so that a reasonable question just becomes a battlefield until I have to say they aren’t going.

I can’t bear dealing with him. Even with him getting a court order it will continue like this.

He sounds exactly like my ex! Actively tries to make things as inconvenient as possible, won't give me set times as then I'd know what time I'd have to myself and could plan something for myself, refuses set days and times, doesn't tell me when he's dropping them off... He even changed our DS's days at nursery without telling me so that I wouldn't be able to work those days! It blew my mind!!
I don't have great advice, I just no longer argue or show him I give a shit and it seems to have made it less fun for him knowing he's not getting under my skin. When he swaps times/days around I just say "oh brill, that works out better for me" and hope he gives up being a bellend.

@RandomMess

Don't start playing games.

Seriously just offer fixed weekly contact.

"DC are available on Saturdays 10-6 and Wednesdays 5-6pm, if you turn up more than 10 minutes late it will be assumed you aren't coming"

Less is more. No discussions or negotiations just repeat grey rock/broken record technique.

If he says that doesn't work for him ignore don't negotiate etc.

Obviously choose a day and times he doesn't work everything else is up to him.

Perhaps Friday evening and Saturday work best as it's less of an issue if he returns them late plus he will likely want to go out and therefore bring them back.

If he returns them just message him once they are back. The late return this evening at x is noted. Nothing more.

He wants to keep you engaged in the endless messages etc so drop the rope.

This. People telling you to 'play him at his own game' need to grow up. He's manipulating and using his kids as a tool to do that. Suggesting OP does the same is... well, just low.

With the wizard app after a few months my ex forgot that everyone could view it and the awful messages started. He was unable to deny sending them. It's £99 a year and totally worth it.

IME it doesn't ever stop completely but it does improve and having a court order can help.

The court won't want to deal with every single detail - just the points of contention. Have a plan for contact that works in the children's best interests. Even if your ex doesn't agree with it, if the court sees the sense in it you are half way there. When you go to court, make sure you have a proposal that is as detailed as possible so he can't continue to control you via the DC. Ensure it stipulates times for drop offs, how and when he can contact you and in what time frame responses have to be made in, how much notice is required for any changes to arrangements etc. If it's all sensible and reasonable you could end up with an order that works for you. Otherwise you might end up with an order that still requires a lot of contact and negotiation with him.

My ex loves conflict like this. He also does the ignoring texts things knowing that it leaves me stressed and wondering what’s going on. He also texts very late and very early, again to unsettle me.

I recommend ‘grey rock’ too, and putting a mental fence up. You then read his messages objectively not so emotionally. Ask yourself what he’s doing, why he’s saying what he’s saying, what controlling and manipulative techniques he’s using, what his objective is. Working out his MO helped me enormously. You can’t reason with a narcissist but you can identify their methods and their motivation. Think hard and be alert.

Do not respond to anything provocative. Do not tell him anything except what you need to. Keep your replies brief, factual and devoid of all emotion. Do not respond to insults, him trying to start an argument - reply in a business-like way to the important points re contact.

Have a set schedule for contact with set days and times. It’s the only way. You also then have to record every breach by text or email so that you have evidence. Also, I’d collect them at the end of his contact. I found that made me feel more in control and showed ex up better.

I also offloaded a lot of my stress onto a counsellor, which helped far more than I thought it would. X

This case will benefit from a court order op and I am all for resolving issues without the need for court as it polarises parties even more. He is controlling you still and enjoying it, playing with your head. I bet you feel as though you are never free of him.

Handovers need resolving. You cannot be in a situation whereby you are permanently worried about return times as your anxiety will pass to the children.

The court in our case ordered handovers in the school. It generally is a good idea because he would absolutely have to stick to a timetable. But it sounds like one of the children is too young. It did not work in school for us because I had to collect another child ( I am a grandparent carer) and it caused distress to gc1.

We also tried a local supermarket - again to ensure he stuck to times. But he would arrive, pick up gc1 and not let him come to us whilst smirking and laughing. Such an awful person who could not put his son first.

In the end it had to be at a close family member's house which he vehemently opposed. I had to push this and instead of the supermarket, I let him know he would be available at this address. Strangely it worked. She took no nonsense, handed over and waved him off each time. He was fuming but it worked for my gs.

We had one or two issues when he did not turn up. We would call and say he would have him next weekend instead. Just no. He would have him on his next court ordered visit.

I hope you can resolve this op, I know the feeling of being controlled. All you want is the simple courtesy of a return or collection time.

"He" would call, not We.

I agree with all of the advise here

Repeat his words back
Don’t ask questions like ‘what time’ state the children will be available Saturday 10am they will expect you before 10:15

Don’t mention ‘I’ I would like, I won’t be back

State using the children. ‘The children would prefer being home by six so they can have a bath and get ready for bed’

Take ‘you’ out of the equation.

@TheFoundations

A little mind trick for you, as you've had plenty of practical suggestions already:

Does it help to think of this as 'He is unbearable', rather than 'I can't bear him'? It just takes the pressure off you to even try to be climb the ridiculous mountains he keeps putting in front of you, and places the responsibility for the difficulties he's causing with him, rather than with your lack of ability to deal with him.

Also:

I like this. Thanks for the insight TF.

I am still having to do this with my ex. But getting there.

'placing the responsibility for the difficulties he's causing ...rather than your lack of ability to deal with him...'

@Thecrisplover

With the wizard app after a few months my ex forgot that everyone could view it and the awful messages started. He was unable to deny sending them. It's £99 a year and totally worth it.

I wish this had existed years ago. Sounds great.

Exactly like my exh. I can't ask for times as that's controlling, he will give me a time for pick up and arrive at least an hour late if not longer. 9/10 times. Meaning if I've made plans I have to rearrange/cancel. This has included doctor/hospital appointments too.

As for when he's bringing them back, he won't give me a time. If I specify a time, I'm being unreasonable. It's almost impossible to go anywhere or do anything. If he even gets a whiff that I have plans, he'll cancel altogether.

We'd initially specified days and he cancels at the last minute or wants to change the day to suit his social life. He's been known to text me at 10 at night when it's an overnight and say he's bringing them home because xyz reason.

Once I was on a date when he called, I said why weren't the DC in bed (it was half 11) and no I couldn't just go home. I heard him say to DC 'mum doesn't want you at home she's out with another man.' So of course I ended my date and went home, only for him to then text and say never mind they can stay til tomorrow. Those are just a few of the experiences over the last few years.

Only my youngest DC sees him now after all this. She never knows when she'll be at his or for how long, which makes it hard for her to make plans to play/have sleepovers with friends.

I once read a post on here about this kind of exh, and the words were something along the lines of 'when you separate from a guy like this he goes from standing inside the tent and pissing out, to standing outside pissing in.' Paraphrased, but you get the idea, and it's completely right.

Sorry I've got no real advice, the rage and anxiety does improve after a while. Just know you're not unreasonable at all.

Oh, and as they are growing and I realise you probably plan to do this already, and are old enough to talk about relationships. Please talk about narcissism and emotional abuse.

You can talk about it in a general sense, not mentioning any names but gives them the strength to recognise such dynamics generally and in particular talk to them about what gaslighting is.

I've got a book on it now

Just called 'Gaslighting - how to recognise manipulative and emotionally abusive people' . It is tough going to read so watch that it may be triggering.

When you have kids with someone it potentially puts you in a vulnerable position. Again, some people don't realise that, they might just think you are a bit stupid for getting involved with someone like that, but in actual fact it could happen to any one of us.

I really suggest going for the court order. It will help and a neutral pick up/drop off.

I agree don’t play him at his own game - he won’t give up.
Don’t give him lectures about routines and bedtimes - he won’t care.
Disengage and be as relaxed as you can about it on the surface.
I wouldn’t start saying, the children are only available at such and such time and then going out if he doesn’t turn up in ten minutes as it distresses the children if they are expecting to see their father.
It gets slightly better when the dc get to teenagers as he can do the arranging with them and you are not tied to times so much.
I think some suggestions are a bit unrealistic.

@Doyoumind

IME it doesn't ever stop completely but it does improve and having a court order can help.

The court won't want to deal with every single detail - just the points of contention. Have a plan for contact that works in the children's best interests. Even if your ex doesn't agree with it, if the court sees the sense in it you are half way there. When you go to court, make sure you have a proposal that is as detailed as possible so he can't continue to control you via the DC. Ensure it stipulates times for drop offs, how and when he can contact you and in what time frame responses have to be made in, how much notice is required for any changes to arrangements etc. If it's all sensible and reasonable you could end up with an order that works for you. Otherwise you might end up with an order that still requires a lot of contact and negotiation with him.

Yes, would go with this, in fact this is what I did too.

And yes, right it doesn't ever stop completley but to a certain extent a detailed order will help.

Because nothing you need to negotiate over. He may still not bring the kids back but in that case you phone the police and show them to order.

Really painful for you and the children

Hard as it might be, I would try just saying

Can I have the children on Friday

yes

then leave it

you've replied and if he wants to make arrangements - then let him decide what to do from that answer.

would he really then just turn up on Friday and expect the dc to be there waiting for him?

You have my every sympathy. Keep every communication. In order to feel you have some influence over the situation - feel reassured that all communication is evidence for when the court order is read. You’re lining up your canons so to speak. Lose the battle to win the war. (Of course it’s not a war, we’ll actually it is but more like guerilla warfare )

kurt

I had similar to you with the lateness, but I had to get to work. The one time I dropped the off with my own father instead and then he refused to hand them over to my ex and he never did that again

if he rang to say oh I can't have them or can I bring them back my stand response was

Oh god yes, we can go and do xy&z they'll love it, can't wait get my babies home

it stopped after I did it about 3 times, he knew I was genuinely pleased to be with them so his game was failing

the thought of his children then going to be with mum and having a ball seemed not to be favourable to him I guess

that should have read if he doesn't bring them back you phone the police and show them the order

@ivykaty44 oh believe me I've done all those things and a few more. He's probably the most difficult, unreasonable person I've ever known. Nothing phases him.

If you can get a court order, get a court order. Then he is not just arguing with you when he starts being a prick.

He sounds really, really boring.

[quote KurtWilde]@ivykaty44 oh believe me I've done all those things and a few more. He's probably the most difficult, unreasonable person I've ever known. Nothing phases him. [/quote]
Get this sorted in court. It would make life better for you.

This sounds awful, it's no surprise at all you're going mad. I would be feeling so wound up and frustrated. But maybe that's part of this and his end goal?

I wonder whether you don't just treat this (outwardly) like it's zero bother to you for a bit. It's ok to be screaming with frustration privately. Let him do his thing, if he thinks it's not getting to you he might get bored. In fact I'd say it sounds extremely likely he will get bored full stop - the children aren't going to be desperate to spend time with someone like this are they as time goes on? He doesn't sound like someone they're desperate to be around. Hopefully, if you can outwardly make your behaviour show him it's not getting to you remotely, you will get messed around for a few months at most, the court will have their say, life will move on and I'd be really surprised if he then keeps up regular contact. And then you'll have some lovely peace and the chance to plan your life how you want it.

Act as if it's fine. Don't press him on times at all. If he gives you a day he's going to have them, go back only with, great, see you then! No more contact beyond that. It's an inconvenience to you for a short few months while he is an arse and does his own thing on timings. When he drops off after that, still be really breezy and say thanks, lovely to have them back, see you next time. Smile and wave. He will get distracted by some other woman or get bored by trying to push your buttons if you aren't responding before long. If you continue as you are, not only is he not going to start giving you clear times, he's going to get pleasure out of you feeling miserable. The shit.

for you

Out of interest, what safeguarding issue is there that means overnights, specifically, aren't safe, but daytime unsupervised contact is safe?

Just gently firing a warning shot: if he's able to keep them safe unsupervised during the day, you may well find that he is awarded some overnight contact when you get to court, unless there are very specific factors at play here you haven't talked about.

The conflict about no overnights may be fuelling his behaviour. He sounds like an arse, but he may be struggling with the inconsistency - that he's safe to have the kids unsupervised during the day but not overnight - and that may be fuelling the conflict and nastiness from his side. He may be developing a narrative that you're controlling and a contact denier.

Hopefully court will settle the matter one way or another and some of the conflict will be resolved.

OP has said the safeguarding issues are not just her saying it it’s outside agencies.

If the outside agencies deem him a safeguarding risk judges sometimes order interim day contact but there are usually investigations on going before contact case returns to court for review.

My DC only had day contact which was eventually rescinded to indirect contact afte investigations.

It happens.