Do you know anyone personally who belongs to a Far Right group?

[FortunesFave]

I was just thinking about far right extremists because of something I saw on Youtube and then thought about how I've never and would probably never meet one of these people because of my line of work (the arts) then I began thinking about people who might be like that but hide it...

Does anyone know any? Are they open about their ideals? I promise I am not a journo. Just interested.

"I also agree re UKIP and Brexit that, just because a lot of outright racists and haters were attracted to them (and the main big parties are also far from immune from this), there are/were a great many people who genuinely, peacefully wanted to take back what they saw as the right to self-rule"

Yes but Rabbis were not pleading to the local community and national country to stop Brexit were they? They feared anti sematism from the far left, momentum which flourished under Jeremey Corynb. its gob smacking, imagine the out cry of the BNP were the given the same air space by the Torys as Momentum by JC!! They were pleading in open letters taken out in national papers - please do not vote JC in!

RE the church that looked happy clappy and benign. ..well our catholic church had a priest who was very inclined in that way - rigid on abortion, homophobia etc we were not even supposed to celebrate halloween.

I'm left of centre by the way, i dont think knowing about The Horseshoe Effect and being sceptical about Antifa means I'm an apologist for the right, it just means I'm careful about who i support these days, always read the smallprint to check for authoritarian tendencies!
Luckily Antifa aren't well organised, the same "types" have been around since I was a student in the 80s and they are more of an annoyance than a threat most of the time.

My cousin occasionally used to share Britain First posts (she's ex-forces), however she's now got a job housing asylum seekers and seems to have become more empathetic thankfully.

Yes I agree. 'Liberal fascism' for example is a concept invented by American conservatives because they were tired of being called fascists by the left (Jonah Goldberg says as much in his book of the same name). Classic distraction/derailment as we all argue about whether the left is as bad as the right, rather than focusing on right-wing extremism (which is now seen as the #1/#2 domestic security threat in the US and UK)

For the record, I deplore the racism, hatred, stupidity and vile behaviour of those on the far right. Like Wbeezer, my views too would probably align most with the left of centre.

Call it what you will, but I think it's very interesting that you don't want to countenance the idea that there's also a lot of very harmful and dangerous stuff coming from groups who would be considered far left - not materially all that different from the fruits of the far right. Why ever would a different variety of political extremism not be considered a natural and reasonable expansion of the topic in a discussion about political extremism?

In fact, your phrasing is quite reminiscent of those who consider themselves extremely liberal and thus seek to silence/ridicule/cancel/no-platform anybody who either criticises them and their beliefs or doesn't criticise people with whom they disagree - no interest in discussion at all, simply assume that they are 100% right and that everybody else accepts this.

I for one would not want my children to be taught or looked after by a racist. And I'd imagine the parents of ethnic minority children would feel the same.

And FYI the BNP are no longer a registered political party. And it's members are already banned from joining the police and fire brigade.

Absolutely! The BNP believes/believed that non-white people aren’t British and should be expelled from the country; that LBGT people shouldn’t have rights; that the Holocaust didn’t happen; and that women shouldn’t be employed and should be housewives.

I personally don’t think any of those beliefs are compatible with a career in modern education and clearly the school felt the same way.

I think you would have to define far right as evident in the feminism world currently many things are labeled as far right which are not. Animal rights activist that critisise halal or kosher animal preparation, gender critical, people concerned about immigration or building over the countryside. Nower data you classify far right with what you don't agree with to shut down the debate.

And this is why my first novel will have the title '... and that's why there will never be world peace!'

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Yes I agree. 'Liberal fascism' for example is a concept invented by American conservatives because they were tired of being called fascists by the left (Jonah Goldberg says as much in his book of the same name). Classic distraction/derailment as we all argue about whether the left is as bad as the right, rather than focusing on right-wing extremism (which is now seen as the #1/#2 domestic security threat in the US and UK)

For the record, I deplore the racism, hatred, stupidity and vile behaviour of those on the far right. Like Wbeezer, my views too would probably align most with the left of centre.

Call it what you will, but I think it's very interesting that you don't want to countenance the idea that there's also a lot of very harmful and dangerous stuff coming from groups who would be considered far left - not materially all that different from the fruits of the far right. Why ever would a different variety of political extremism not be considered a natural and reasonable expansion of the topic in a discussion about political extremism?

In fact, your phrasing is quite reminiscent of those who consider themselves extremely liberal and thus seek to silence/ridicule/cancel/no-platform anybody who either criticises them and their beliefs or doesn't criticise people with whom they disagree - no interest in discussion at all, simply assume that they are 100% right and that everybody else accepts this.

Oh please. I explicitly said the far left can be despicable as well. That doesn't mean there is such a thing as 'liberal fascism' or that we need to be whataboutery on a thread about right-wing extremism.

@CMeredithC @C130

If you read the post you're complaining about, you will see the poster is not advocating those things, but saying they have now been called examples of white racism.

So - traditional taught maths, punctuality, orchestral music are by some extremists to "disadvantage" anyone not white. Which we all seem to agree is ridiculous and actually implying anyone not white finds traditonal maths, punctuality etc difficult or inimical.

We can all quote brilliant BAME classical performers, mathermaticians, writers, scientists, artists and explorers - to mention a few.

And its good it is now being talked about more than ever.

But saying BAME people need a different curriculum is infantilising BAME people.

Oh please. I explicitly said the far left can be despicable as well. That doesn't mean there is such a thing as 'liberal fascism' or that we need to be whataboutery on a thread about right-wing extremism.

But how is it whataboutery to express the reasoned belief that the two supposedly-opposite extremes actually overlap and blur in a number of ways? I'm glad we're in agreement that neither end of the traditional spectrum is above reproach or beyond criticism, though.

I had a friend at uni who used to vote and campaign for the BNP.
She was highly intelligent, was a complete goth and a lesbian and just not someone I would have ever have associated with far right views.
I used to steer well clear of politics with her.

Oh please. I explicitly said the far left can be despicable as well. That doesn't mean there is such a thing as 'liberal fascism' or that we need to be whataboutery on a thread about right-wing extremism.
Neither of us used the phrase "liberal fascism" and I don't think it's whataboutery to mention the almost overlap between extreme left and right especially when you have people like Claire Fox in the house of Lords who used to be a revolutionary communist and is now in the Reform Party via the Brexit Party.

Neither of us used the phrase "liberal fascism"

To be fair, I did - but I don't actually care about getting hung up on the semantics: my argument still stands that extremism of all varieties has the potential to be equally bad and the 'ends' are frequently not mutually-exclusive from one another.

Pointing out the terrible failings of another group doesn't automatically render/prove your own group blameless.

Growing up in a very white, middle class area, our friendship group was mostly made up of minority kids, some Pakistanis, east & west Africans and a few mixed kids. There weren’t many of us but we all kind of stuck together despite being from different schools and backgrounds. “Jimmy” was one of a select few white kids who was part of our social circle. Nice enough kid, I even briefly dated him at 15.

Despite being an otherwise good guy, Jimmy turns out to be a staunch EDL, Tommy Robinson supporter. We’re all in our late 30’s and early 40’s, most of us have children. I had to delete him from SM after he shared highly offensive images, I lost total respect for him at that point. I’ve shared many a glass of wine with Jimmy in recent years in the hope of triggering some sort of critical thinking, but all he does is parrot all sorts of nonsense, but adds “you’re ok space, you’re one of the good ones”.

Yes, my ex best friends H was a staunch EDL supporter and released a horrific tirade on my DH when he called him out on some of his views. My ex friend started parroting the same shit, so we cut all contact and haven't seen them in years.

I know someone who's in EDL. It's worrying because he is a vulnerable, special needs adult. He has clearly been groomed.

I know of a couple of colleagues who hold far right views although I wouldn't know if they are part of a FR group or not. At a guess no.
I would say for one of them I am not surprised they are. The other one I was very surprised.

I have family members who will casually post far right content on facebook but don't seem to be active members of anything.

I have a (now ex) friend who I think did join Britain First. She was a bit of a lost soul and had form for dramatic changes in values, politics and identity.
Britain First was just the latest.
I dont think she has any friends left from before and thats part of her way, I think.
Everyone associated with her old life gets dropped or deiberately provoked into dropping her when she adopts a new identity. I worry for her and feel bad about the friendship ending, although it was inevitable.

I also know someone through tenants activism (although not well) who is an ex loyalist paramilitary. Thats pretty far right. Scary guy. Very interested in improving flower beds and general landscaping. Go figure.

I’m Jewish so I have had a few unpleasant surprises over the years. The worst was a fairly nondescript guy who found out and got so worked up that he actually went to HR to ask that I was sacked with immediate effect as (and I quote to make a disgustingly racist point) “kikes can’t be trusted” and “oven dodgers have no place in decent society”. Really, really shocking language that no one could really believe he actually thought let alone said. Unsurprisingly he didn’t get the result he expected and walked out, which saved us an unpleasant disciplinary process.
I don’t know if he is actually a member of a far right group, but I’m amazed that he hasn’t served a prison sentence yet.

Several of my elderly uncle’s, particularly one who grew up in the colonies and thinks Africa would do much better to go back to the days of Empire.

I'm genuinely interested in anyone explaining to me why the so-called Antifa (I hate that term!) are as bad as actual fascists.

As I understand it, the ideology of fascism promotes the idea of the superiority of certain ethnic groups/ religions over others, and seeks to enforce this with military power, up to and including the attempted annihilation of entire races. Usually there's a fair bit of misogyny and homophobia chucked in there as well.

Anti fascists try to stop them doing that. And.....that is bad?

In Britain, in recent history, antifascist action has usually taken the form of mobilising to stop right wing groups from marching through- typically- ethnically mixed areas, throwing their weight around and intimidating people. I'd say the worst thing you could say about them is that they're looking for a legitimate excuse for a punch up.

So, if you're anti anti fascists......what does that make you?

A couple of distant young relatives are TRAs.

They've been silently removed from the Christmas card list.

"I'm genuinely interested in anyone explaining to me why the so-called Antifa (I hate that term!) are as bad as actual fascists."

OK I'll bite.

The roots of Antifa in the UK go back to AFA (Anti Fascist Action) in the 70's and 80's.
Back then the far right was pursuing a strategy of street fighting and terror as opposed to electoral politics. This posed an existential threat both to minority communities and to the left who would be attacked when selling papers or holding meetings.
AFA were more or less controlled by Red Action, initially a faction of the SWP. They were known for very tight discipline, proficiency at physical violence and murky links to Irish Republicanism.
At the time AFA was criticised from the left for being "squaddist", macho and elitist. All of which was true.
More seriously they could be criticised for parachuting into a community, escalating the situation and leaving minority communities to face heightened violence.
In general, I think everyone felt that the gold standard for anti-fascism was coalition building and mobilising communities. Whether this would have been possible without some hard bastards milling about in the background is a matter of debate.
The tactic of "No Platforming" originates in this time. The idea was to draw a very firm line between fascism and "respectable" politics. Contrary to popular belief this was not done because the ideas themselves were evil (although they are) but because hosting a fascist speaker would inevitably open up space for violence. People would literally be beaten in the streets around any meeting a far right speaker was invited to.
Lefties at the time were alive to the danger of surpressing free speech and very much considered it a last resort.
Fast Forward to the late 90's to early 2000's:
The level of racist violence in working class communities had dropped substantially and the far right were moving on to electoral politics.
Red Action disbanded AFA on the grounds that different tactics were needed. (They went on to found a community organising outfit called the Indpendant Working Class Association which I was briefly involved in)
Some people wanted to continue having fights. They adopted the name Antifa to do so. The name is borrowed from anti fascists in Germany. Hence the characteristic contraction of two words- Anti and Fascist.
This iteration of militant anti-fascism was very much decentralised and had little to no internal discipling. Anyone who thinks about this for a second will understand this is a dangerous state of affairs for a group of people who consider violence to be a legitimate tactic.

In the meantime, the tactic of No Platforming gradually got adopted more widely and many lefties decided they could no platform anyone they disagreed with. Often people who, in the past, would have been brought into coalitions against fascists.
Regular readers of the feminism board will know where this has led us. People calling themselves Antifa now feel emboldened to protest and attack feminists because they disagree on issues of trans inclusion.
I personally think Antifa is a pathetic gaggle of daft kiddies LARPing as street fighters. This is why they like to attack soft targets like women on their way to feminist meetings.
More seriously they wave a flag for the idea that feminism is equivalent to fascism and should be met with violent tactics which opens the door for significant escalation.

As Helen Steel recently said- they are the fascists now.

In Britain, in recent history, antifascist action has usually taken the form of mobilising to stop right wing groups from marching through- typically- ethnically mixed areas, throwing their weight around and intimidating people

I should add that I very much still approve of this sort of activity.

My concern with antifa is the toxic combination of acceptance of violence, poor internal discipline and trans rights politics.

@unlimiteddilutingjuice

"I'm genuinely interested in anyone explaining to me why the so-called Antifa (I hate that term!) are as bad as actual fascists."

OK I'll bite.

The roots of Antifa in the UK go back to AFA (Anti Fascist Action) in the 70's and 80's.
Back then the far right was pursuing a strategy of street fighting and terror as opposed to electoral politics. This posed an existential threat both to minority communities and to the left who would be attacked when selling papers or holding meetings.
AFA were more or less controlled by Red Action, initially a faction of the SWP. They were known for very tight discipline, proficiency at physical violence and murky links to Irish Republicanism.
At the time AFA was criticised from the left for being "squaddist", macho and elitist. All of which was true.
More seriously they could be criticised for parachuting into a community, escalating the situation and leaving minority communities to face heightened violence.
In general, I think everyone felt that the gold standard for anti-fascism was coalition building and mobilising communities. Whether this would have been possible without some hard bastards milling about in the background is a matter of debate.
The tactic of "No Platforming" originates in this time. The idea was to draw a very firm line between fascism and "respectable" politics. Contrary to popular belief this was not done because the ideas themselves were evil (although they are) but because hosting a fascist speaker would inevitably open up space for violence. People would literally be beaten in the streets around any meeting a far right speaker was invited to.
Lefties at the time were alive to the danger of surpressing free speech and very much considered it a last resort.
Fast Forward to the late 90's to early 2000's:
The level of racist violence in working class communities had dropped substantially and the far right were moving on to electoral politics.
Red Action disbanded AFA on the grounds that different tactics were needed. (They went on to found a community organising outfit called the Indpendant Working Class Association which I was briefly involved in)
Some people wanted to continue having fights. They adopted the name Antifa to do so. The name is borrowed from anti fascists in Germany. Hence the characteristic contraction of two words- Anti and Fascist.
This iteration of militant anti-fascism was very much decentralised and had little to no internal discipling. Anyone who thinks about this for a second will understand this is a dangerous state of affairs for a group of people who consider violence to be a legitimate tactic.

In the meantime, the tactic of No Platforming gradually got adopted more widely and many lefties decided they could no platform anyone they disagreed with. Often people who, in the past, would have been brought into coalitions against fascists.
Regular readers of the feminism board will know where this has led us. People calling themselves Antifa now feel emboldened to protest and attack feminists because they disagree on issues of trans inclusion.
I personally think Antifa is a pathetic gaggle of daft kiddies LARPing as street fighters. This is why they like to attack soft targets like women on their way to feminist meetings.
More seriously they wave a flag for the idea that feminism is equivalent to fascism and should be met with violent tactics which opens the door for significant escalation.

As Helen Steel recently said- they are the fascists now.

I was just coming to look at this, but you have explained it very well.

thank you.

Yes, the comment about horseshoe politics yesterday was also excellent.