You're invited to a friends for dinner at 7pm, what time do you ring their doorbell?

[suggestionsplease1]

Out of interest, feel free to post to the minute!

Let's say this is not a very, very close friend, so you don't have a pre-existing idea of their expectations / preferences for your arrival time.

After reading another thread on visitor etiquette on AIBU today I was wondering if mumsnetters can converge on a perfect time, or if there are widely differing ideas on this issue!

And you’re confusing lateness with etiquette Late is simply rude @PerveenMistry
Etiquette is an outmoded set of aspirational behaviour, repetition of rules, habits masquerading as manners

7pm. I take things literally!

7:03

7.10 - I wouldn't want to be on time in case they were running late. My husband would want to be there at 6.45 though, and this discrepancy would cause an argument. So if we were attending as a couple,we'd be bang on time and we'd both be stressed out about it for different reasons.

[quote PerveenMistry]www.etiquetteschoolofamerica.com/the-best-time-to-arrive-at-business-and-social-events/[/quote]
Arriving between seven and eleven minutes after the time on the invitation allows the host or hostess to take care of all the last-minute details (lighting candles, setting out food and beverages, etc.) without interruption.
Or the host(ess) could just put 7.15 on the invite and be ready on time. Is it contrived busyness? Oh I did SO MUCH I couldn't possibly have been ready on time because I did SO MUCH EXTRA?

I still think etiquette when it's counterintuitive to manners is about identifying whether people are in the club and can abide by random rules or if they're interlopers who do what's instinctive this outing themselves as "lower class". And then that behaviour becomes enshrined in "what one does for no good reason except it's what we all do". Because ultimately the only reason you put 7pm when you want people to come at 7.15 or 7.30 is because it's "the thing we do even though there's no good reason"

If host states 7 they may still not be all set and ready on the dot... Ok so we turn up 7-11 minutes late for unforseen issues. Except most unforseen circumstances are likely to take a bit longer. So people should come at half past. But what if they e had a shocking day and the Nanny refused to take the kids and they had to call their Mother? Better make it an hour late... Will that be late enough? What if their mothers car broke down? 90 minutes after the invite said, just to be sure...

When you're planning a event you need to build in enough time for contingencies, not expect your guests to do it for you.

Depends who invited me/where it was.

Inlaws - I'd arrive just before 8. No point bring on time for them because they're always running late.

My parents - 7:20ish

At a restaurant - 6:50 I'm always paranoid about being late at a restaurant and them giving away our table. It's never happened to me, but just one of those irrational worries!

Friends - 7:10/7:15 for most, between 7:30 - 8pm for 2 that I know always run late.

No later than 7.10. Guests that arrived at 7.20 or later would not be getting a second invitation (unless there was a genuine reason for being late)

No excuse for lateness as a personality trait and I have phased out friends who think they are quirky for being constantly late for things

@SleepingStandingUp

If host states 7 they may still not be all set and ready on the dot... Ok so we turn up 7-11 minutes late for unforseen issues. Except most unforseen circumstances are likely to take a bit longer. So people should come at half past. But what if they e had a shocking day and the Nanny refused to take the kids and they had to call their Mother? Better make it an hour late... Will that be late enough? What if their mothers car broke down? 90 minutes after the invite said, just to be sure...

When you're planning a event you need to build in enough time for contingencies, not expect your guests to do it for you.

This is a genuine question - have you ever been to a dinner party? If so, presumably you turned up exactly on time - did everyone else?

Etiquette is about the nuances of social relationships.

People barging up at the top of the hour looking for the fastest way to the chow probably aren't receiving too many invitations where this sort of thing matters.

This is essentially a vanity dance, guests must arrive late,because host is so whizzy and popular that inevitably they are running late
All that candle lighting,the positioning of the jo malone candles,the fussy place setting need to look just so, requires guests to intuitively know to be late. To engage in a convoluted dance

If you know as a host 7pm is cutting it too soon, realistically make it 720 and inform guests that’s the actual arrival time

@RamItBunty

This is essentially a vanity dance, guests must arrive late,because host is so whizzy and popular that inevitably they are running late All that candle lighting,the positioning of the jo malone candles,the fussy place setting need to look just so, requires guests to intuitively know to be late. To engage in a convoluted dance

If you know as a host 7pm is cutting it too soon, realistically make it 720 and inform guests that’s the actual arrival time

But then how would we know your so terribly busy darling that you couldn't possibly be on time and how would we weed out the lower classes who put manners over etiquette??

I hate ppl being late so if I said 7pm I would expect them before and get pissed off if later then 15 mins

@Hardbackwriter yes but then I've got friends who can't make it to a coffee shop on time, they are congenitally late. So people arrive the bit early, on time, bit late, good job we love you and didn't eat yours that we expect of them. No one feels smug for swanning in 20 minutes late. They apologise

Etiquette is how desperate social climbers seek to define themselves
By engaging in unnecessary subterfuge to look relaxed and rigid adhere to rules. Eager to slavishly adhere to etiquette as a mean to demonstrate one’s suitability. Paradoxically the slavish pursuit of etiquette actually marks one out as desperate. Bit gauche

It's probably true that it's all silly/snobby/old-fashioned or whatever - but it's so ingrained that at any dinner party I've ever been to if you turned up 10 minutes early it'd be just you and the host for a fairly embarrassing 20 minutes or so. It would be so clear you were out of step with expectations. Which I guess makes it self perpetuating because I wouldn't mind a sudden shift in etiquette where you drop the 10-15 minute late thing, but I'm not being a one woman protest against it by turning up at a time I know I'm not expected, no matter how logically I could argue that they should have expected me and it's everyone else who's at fault...

it'd be just you and the host for a fairly embarrassing 20 minutes or so who's dinner parties do you go to if being alone with them for 20 minutes whilst the sauce or sitting in the living room whilst they tweak their make up is so embarrassing? I can only assume not people you like terribly well

@Hardbackwriter

It's probably true that it's all silly/snobby/old-fashioned or whatever - but it's so ingrained that at any dinner party I've ever been to if you turned up 10 minutes early it'd be just you and the host for a fairly embarrassing 20 minutes or so. It would be so clear you were out of step with expectations. Which I guess makes it self perpetuating because I wouldn't mind a sudden shift in etiquette where you drop the 10-15 minute late thing, but I'm not being a one woman protest against it by turning up at a time I know I'm not expected, no matter how logically I could argue that they should have expected me and it's everyone else who's at fault...

Exactly.

@RamItBunty

Etiquette is how desperate social climbers seek to define themselves By engaging in unnecessary subterfuge to look relaxed and rigid adhere to rules. Eager to slavishly adhere to etiquette as a mean to demonstrate one’s suitability. Paradoxically the slavish pursuit of etiquette actually marks one out as desperate. Bit gauche

Disparaging etiquette says a lot about the person doing so....

So it’s not etiquette it’s an ingrained bad habit that one/some are to scared to breach

Dinner at 7pm, means knocking on the door no earlier that 6.45pm and no later than 7pm

@RamItBunty I understand your point of view. My point is that perhaps other people don't share the same etiquette. It's not about 'being late', it's about knowing what's normal in your social circles.

For you, arriving after 7.00 would seem rude. I get it. But for other circles, arriving at 7.15 - 7.30 may be the accepted, and polite norm.

And anyone can have an opinion, and can flap all they like, but the reality is that different social groups have different norms.

I'm not commenting on whether any stance is right or wrong: it is down to what is polite and normal in your circle of friends and family. And I don't think that any one group can judge the other. People, and their circles, can be different, and adhere to different habits. And that's okay, because that's what a free society means

Etiquette is not manners.
Manners are inclusive and globally understood.mutually beneficial
Etiquette is exclusionary not globally understood and benefit a minority by habitation and reinforcement

@RamItBunty

So it’s not etiquette it’s an ingrained bad habit that one/some are to scared to breach

I would suggest you seek out a wide range of etiquette books and read what the actual experts say.

Those who find that decent manners are a burden are free to proceed without, but the fact remains that established conventions do exist.

Etiquette is how desperate social climbers seek to define themselves
By engaging in unnecessary subterfuge to look relaxed and rigid adhere to rules. Eager to slavishly adhere to etiquette as a mean to demonstrate one’s suitability. Paradoxically the slavish pursuit of etiquette actually marks one out as desperate

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