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Original poster

Would you try and fight this ticket?

107 replies

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 06:34

My mum is a fit, competent 70 something and a safe steady driver, never had an accident in 50 years of driving.

She does limited mileage these days and drives an old car, that she's had since new and is properly maintained, serviced every year etc.

She's also one of those people who wouldn't dream of driving anywhere, even moving the car off the drive, without a seatbelt. In fact she and Dad were wearing seatbelts routinely long before it was law and Dsis and I had car seats in the 70s when it was really very unusual.

Anyway, she was stopped by police for the first time ever. They wanted to inspect the car. I suspect as it's so old they expected to be able to issue a ticket for some fault or other, but they didn't find one.

Then, after asking her to get out of the car (thus removing her seatbelt) they've issued a fixed penalty for not wearing a seatbelt. It's £100, but can increase to £500 if you go to court.

She's furious at the corruption injustice, but also feels powerless. Anyone who knows her could vouch for the fact that she always wears a seatbelt, but there's no proof she was doing on this occasion.

Is there anything she can do? Would you just pay up?

OP posts:

Ickythefirebobby · 09/06/2021 09:04

@DirectionsForUse

OK, so worth asking for the bodycam footage at least and see from there. I agree it's probably not worth the aggravation but OTOH who is going to hold those in authority to account if not us?

Do they always have them on or will it be like when I worked for a large financial institution and we could never find the telephone recording if it showed we were in the wrong ?

It’s unlikely they were on for a traffic stop. They tend to put them on if they’re going to a domestic for example. It’s not them being evasive if their cameras weren’t on. If they recorded every single thing they did you can imagine the storage issues. They go to hundreds of incidents every week. I think you need to stop looking for excuses and accept that your mum is not a perfect driver. None of us are.

Original poster

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 09:18

She said she told them that she had been wearing a seatbelt but had removed it when they asked her to get out of the car, but they wouldn't listen. There were several minutes between getting out of the car and any mention of seatbelts. They told her they were issuing the ticket and she could appeal if she wanted. I expect she was rude/sarcastic and they were the same back.

OP posts:

Original poster

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 09:20

If they'd said she made a mistake in her driving, she might find the criticism hard to take, but we'd all accept that. Wearing a seat belt is pretty black and white though. It's not like it's a matter of opinion.

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Driving & parking

RJnomore1 · 09/06/2021 09:26

I believe your mum.

I’d definitely challenge it.

MrsCat1 · 09/06/2021 09:27

I think this is going to be very difficult for your mum to win if it goes to court. It is basically her word against the word of 2 officers unless there is video evidence. I've spent many days sitting in court observing traffic cases such as these, which move through court at quite a speed. In all cases I have ever seen there would be a very credible person who would say that he wasn't guilty and then an equally credible police officer who would get out his notebook and say exactly the opposite. And then the court would back the police version of events.

I don't know whether your mum is right or wrong but I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope of her winning in court without any other evidence. Sorry....

nothingcanhurtmewithmyeyesshut · 09/06/2021 09:30

I think its worth asking for any footage and their side of the incident but honestly it's more likely she forgot and didn't realise. Mistakes happen, there is no-one in the world who doesn't make them and since there were 2 of them and one of her, on balance its more likely to be her who forgot. Its just sods law that the one time she forgot, she got spotted.

Juneisjoyful · 09/06/2021 09:35

Where had she been? Maybe cctv outside the last shop would show her putting her seat belt on...

legotruck · 09/06/2021 09:52

@Juneisjoyful

Where had she been? Maybe cctv outside the last shop would show her putting her seat belt on...

That's she put it on prior to being stopped is none it that it remained on and was indeed still on when she was stopped.

tickingthebox73 · 09/06/2021 09:53

@DirectionsForUse

I would appeal and ask to see the evidence.

From experience a police officer stopped my husband in his (admittedly high powered/noisy) car for speeding.

He wasn't speeding.

On appeal and some argument there was no evidence (as he hadn't been speeding!) and the officer had stopped him as he "sounded like he was speeding" and the police dropped it.

Or this could be one of those tricky ones - if she was sat in the passenger seat with the engine running and no seat belt...

SmellThis · 09/06/2021 09:58

I believe your mum too
Did she unbuckle it when she turned the engine off, expecting to get straight out?

kidneynewname · 09/06/2021 09:59

Can't believe the number of posters immediately assuming your mum is lying.

I agree that if you're the type to wear a seatbelt all the time then in becomes habit.

I think it's worth appealing and asking for evidence and disputing it-what's the worst that can happen? Will the fine increase if evidence proves otherwise or will it stay at the £100?

Original poster

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 10:00

@SmellThis

I believe your mum too Did she unbuckle it when she turned the engine off, expecting to get straight out?

Possibly, but she says they didn't mention the seatbelt until after they'd all looked the car over. Surely the time to tell her she wasn't wearing a seatbelt was before she got out?

OP posts:

Original poster

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 10:01

AFAIK the only way to challenge it is to go to court, when the fine goes up to £500 (plus costs, I think). A pretty good way to ensure people don't challenge these...

OP posts:

Jumpingintosummer · 09/06/2021 10:02

If I was utterly sure I was correct I would appeal and request proof.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 09/06/2021 10:09

A pretty good way to ensure people don't challenge these...

Consider what would happen if there were no cost to challenging driving fines...

wonkylegs · 09/06/2021 10:18

My mum started to do the odd thing out of character and would swear blindly that she hadn't done it to the point you'd think oh I must have been mistaken, just minor things, but things you'd think were hard wired into her brain.
Over time it became more frequent and more people noticed, the things became more noticeable. We made her go for tests.
Mum was diagnosed with dementia about 5yrs ago in her 60's. Unfortunately hers has had a fairly rapid onset over the past 3yrs.
She was previously fit and well and there is no family history.
Just be aware and keep an eye, it may be a mistake but it may not be and may be something else. I suspect my mum wasn't even aware at first and certainly was resistant to investigation.

SmellThis · 09/06/2021 10:22

Absolutely @DirectionsForUse , it’s exactly the kind of thing I’d do
Did she say anything at the time ?
If she didn’t , I’d suck it up and just learn from it
The unfairness would play on my mind though

Vanishun · 09/06/2021 10:46

There are no targets - for goodness sake, don't go in with that kind of paranoid nonsense.

Challenge in a civil way and start by asking if they have any evidence.

Crispychillibeef · 09/06/2021 12:11

Op I think you need to accept that your mum is human and therefore not infallible. The level of your defense of her is silly considering you weren't even there.

GammyLeg · 09/06/2021 12:18

I believe your mum. Cops don’t get commissions for fines but they can be arsey if you’re rude to them and that’s probably what happened with your mum.

FinallyHere · 09/06/2021 12:49

I have been to court on driving charges and always found the courts to be absolutely fair. My reaction would be to stay very calm, apologise for taking up the courts time with this matter and ask to see the evidence. If you can do this by letter in advance, even better, all with a focus on not taking up the court's time.

I expect she was rude/sarcastic and they were the same back.

If there is any chance that your DM will be anything other than subservient in court, I would simply not risk it, and pay up by letter.

I have had policemen make a series of allegations, the ones that I could answer simply were quietly dropped in court. The one valid one I was fined for and the others not mentioned again.

The fixed penalty ticket will always be less than the court ordered penalty rate, offered as a disincentive to take up the courts time.

Another point worth checking, if you can get the information, is how busy the courts are at the moment. Our local one, for example, is very over worked and is prioritising DV and family cases. If you agree to court it may never come up, but it's quite the nerve wracking seven years to wait to find out

More info from very knowledgable people:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=5

LemonRoses · 09/06/2021 13:09

I think suggesting she has early dementia is outrageous. In her situation I would write a complaint to the Chief Constable, copying in the Police Commissioner, my local MP and the editor of the local press.

We accept shabby behaviour and roll over far too quickly in the face of even minor authority. The police don’t always act well.

FinallyHere · 09/06/2021 13:36

write a complaint to the Chief Constable, copying in the Police Commissioner, my local MP and the editor of the local press.

You won't get very far if you escalate a claim without doing as much as you can't to clarify yourself, as many PPs upthread have suggested.

For example, Chief Constable (more likely a clerical assistant ) reads the complaint, looks up the case, marks the complaint 'officer issued fixed find for non wearing of seat belt' CC will at best read and nothing much will happen.

If you ask to see the evidence, and your DM's version is correct. there is a chance it will get dropped at that point.

Only escalate once you have exhausted all avenues.

Ickythefirebobby · 09/06/2021 13:47

@DirectionsForUse

But in order for those 2 officers to fix stats they would have had to been instructed to do so, by a higher officer who would also have been instructed to do so and so on. Do you not see how utterly ridiculous that would actually be?

I can see a situation where officers on traffic duties are expected to issue x number of tickets per day. Yes.

I recently retired from the Police after 30 years. They do not have quotas of tickets that have to be issued, whether they are traffic officers or not. They actually do very little enforcement at all due to dwindling numbers. They are generally busy doing collision enquiries and running around like blue arsed flies. I think you’re getting carried away with the conspiracy theories.

4fingerKitKat · 09/06/2021 14:11

Would your mum have taken off her seatbelt before she stopped the engine? Bit of a technicality but I wonder if a jobsworth’s definition of when you need to wear a seatbelt would include being on a public road with the engine running?

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