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Original poster

Would you try and fight this ticket?

107 replies

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 06:34

My mum is a fit, competent 70 something and a safe steady driver, never had an accident in 50 years of driving.

She does limited mileage these days and drives an old car, that she's had since new and is properly maintained, serviced every year etc.

She's also one of those people who wouldn't dream of driving anywhere, even moving the car off the drive, without a seatbelt. In fact she and Dad were wearing seatbelts routinely long before it was law and Dsis and I had car seats in the 70s when it was really very unusual.

Anyway, she was stopped by police for the first time ever. They wanted to inspect the car. I suspect as it's so old they expected to be able to issue a ticket for some fault or other, but they didn't find one.

Then, after asking her to get out of the car (thus removing her seatbelt) they've issued a fixed penalty for not wearing a seatbelt. It's £100, but can increase to £500 if you go to court.

She's furious at the corruption injustice, but also feels powerless. Anyone who knows her could vouch for the fact that she always wears a seatbelt, but there's no proof she was doing on this occasion.

Is there anything she can do? Would you just pay up?

OP posts:

legotruck · 09/06/2021 08:16

@DirectionsForUse

People in all walks of life fix their stats. It's definitely not a completely unlikely scenario. Mum just doesn't make these kinds of mistakes and she's furious. If she was in any doubt she'd admit it.

But in order for those 2 officers to fix stats they would have had to been instructed to do so, by a higher officer who would also have been instructed to do so and so on. Do you not see how utterly ridiculous that would actually be?

TheChippendenSpook · 09/06/2021 08:16

Not all police officers carry a bodycam at all times and most normal patrol cars don't have video recording, just to clear up a few misconceptions.

Pinkandwrinkly · 09/06/2021 08:17

Maybe there is a faulty seat belt due to the age of the car. Does the inertia work on them? Perhaps the fine is related to that.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Driving & parking

Coffeemakesmehappy · 09/06/2021 08:18

Did she perhaps pull over and take the seat belt off before the officer got to the window? Lots of people click the seatbelt off as part of the handbrake on, engine off, etc movements. Could it have been automatic on her part, but the police officer didn't see her wearing it?

This is what I was wondering, because that’s definitely what I do?

YesIDoLoveCrisps · 09/06/2021 08:18

Surely the most obvious move is to enquire if they do have body cams?

TheYearOfSmallThings · 09/06/2021 08:18

If your DM is adamant and can afford the £500 fine I would appeal this. However I would be prepared to find out that your DM's version of events is not completely accurate. They stopped her for a reason, and I doubt it was just the age of her car.

Having said that, people make mistakes and police are people, so it is just possible that a policeman who believes older drivers pose a risk on the road has gone OTT here.

ElizabethTudor · 09/06/2021 08:20

If your Mum is adamant she was wearing her seatbelt, then I’d challenge it. Particularly now Police have bodycams. Should be relatively easy to clear up one way or the other.

Original poster

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 08:25

I can see a situation where officers on traffic duties are expected to issue x number of tickets per day. Yes.

OP posts:

TakeYourFinalPosition · 09/06/2021 08:26

Mum just doesn't make these kinds of mistakes and she's furious. If she was in any doubt she'd admit it.

I’d be worried that she forgot, and is mortified she forgot, and now can’t admit it... a combination of embarrassment that she forgot; and fear over what forgetting might indicate?

It’s possible that she met a police office who for some reason just wanted to fine her, but really unlikely, and I’d explore the alternatives just incase...

My DHs aunt was stopped for driving without her lights on last year. She was adamant she had them on, and more angry than I’ve ever seen her that she was being set up for some reason. She’s a really cautious driver; always goes through the same check to set herself up before she goes, so it was unthinkable that she hadn’t turned them on...
But she hadn’t. She appealed, we eventually got footage, her lights weren't on. She was then convinced that the footage must have been edited as she wouldn’t have driven without them on.
We took her for doctor checks which she passed then; but she was diagnosed with dementia a few months later and her husband said that’s what she’d been worrying about - that it was a sign her mind was going, and that she’d lose her license and her independence because of it.

Do appeal if she’s sure and can afford it, but I’d explore both avenues, just incase.

LemonRoses · 09/06/2021 08:27

Yes, appeal and ask for evidence.

Not all police officers are nice, thoughtful people. Most are, but some are macho idiots.

I was once stopped for no real reason and asked why I was driving in the country late at night. I first had to point out why I hadn’t stopped sooner in the middle of nowhere for flashing lights, but had continued to what I considered a safe place.

Then they asked about seat belt and said I wasn’t wearing one. I explained in words of one syllable that I hadn’t yet found a way to get out of the car whilst wearing one and invited them to show me how this could be done.

I asked for their names and said I would be making contact with the Chief Constable. They gabbled on about all sorts of nonsense, like rural crimes, muddy number plates, all sorts of people but backtracked quite quickly when I pointed out being very rude about travellers was racism. They stood looking awkward until I told them was going.

We’re already in a state of government where the Police have been given additional powers. We don’t need to let them get away with bullying tactics.

TheYearOfSmallThings · 09/06/2021 08:32

OP if you don't mind me saying, your response to this seems unusually angry and suspicious bordering on paranoia. Is it possible you are reacting defensively to feelings of panic at the thought that your DM may have forgotten her seatbelt (which would be worryingly out of character for her), and this might be the beginning of something bigger?

Apologies if I am off the mark. My DM is the same age and she can't forget to put the bins out without me panicking over her cognitive health.

Original poster

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 08:32

If she was embarrassed she just wouldn't have told us. That would be usual

My dad's theory is that she was a bit rude grumpy with them about being stopped, which would be in character, but doesn't make this right.

OP posts:

Original poster

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 08:33

Mum isn't getting forgetful. She reminds me about stuff all the time and basically organises us all still.

OP posts:

legotruck · 09/06/2021 08:35

@DirectionsForUse

I can see a situation where officers on traffic duties are expected to issue x number of tickets per day. Yes.

That's not how it works, however...

Can you not then see a situation where those tickets would go to people who were actually breaking laws? They are ten a penny out there on the roads. Nobody needs to make it up.

AlmostSummer21 · 09/06/2021 08:37

With everything you've said - IF your mum is up for it, I'd fight it. They may well have 'lost' the bodycam, but I'd fight it.

Original poster

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 08:38

That's not true though is it Lego truck because we have had (thankfully rare) situations where police officers have been proven to be making it up, occasionally on camera?

OP posts:

TakeYourFinalPosition · 09/06/2021 08:40

Mum isn't getting forgetful. She reminds me about stuff all the time and basically organises us all still.

That doesn’t mean she didn’t forget her seatbelt. It’s a different type of memory.

But to be honest, from a logical perspective, it seems at least equally likely that your mum forgot than that she met a copper who wanted to book her for anything they could find for no real benefit...

So I’d investigate both. Maybe it will have been a bent copper. Maybe it will be that she forgot this time. Both seem unlikely, but one will have to be true.

legotruck · 09/06/2021 08:42

@DirectionsForUse

That's not true though is it Lego truck because we have had (thankfully rare) situations where police officers have been proven to be making it up, occasionally on camera?

I think you need to take a step back. You are being defensive here without a single shred of evidence. Who is 'making it up' now?

I realise it's your mum but you have to be really if here. People do make mistakes. People do act out of character. People can get things wrong.

PieonaBarm · 09/06/2021 08:43

You can't just ask for the body cam before you pay, your mum will have to request a court hearing (all explained on the ticket) at which point the evidence will be disclosed. If she is disputing the facts/circumstances in which the fine was issued then she is going to court. Both sides will put their case to the Magistrates who will decide and then issue a suitable penalty.

If found guilty any penalty imposed is likely to be greater than £100 and you can now incur points on your licence (upto 3) which the court may issue.

If your Mum doesn't want to represent herself at court she would also have to pay for legal representation unless she is eligible for legal aid.

The Police, traffic or not, categorically DO NOT have targets to meet when enforcing traffic violations/going about ANY of their duties.

Original poster

DirectionsForUse · 09/06/2021 08:45

I realise it's your mum but you have to be really if here. People do make mistakes. People do act out of character. People can get things wrong

Of course but does that not apply to police officers too

OP posts:

Helenluvsrob · 09/06/2021 08:51

Hmm not sure I believe your mum.
I’d say pay up and forget about it.

However it should be a lesson to us all - it’s a known thing in Spain for instance if you are stopped by the police to produce documents or what ever , you never remove the seat belt until you’ve confirmed with them you can if needed by having the “ documents are in the glove box can I take my seat belt off to reach it ?” Conversation.

Lalliella · 09/06/2021 08:51

Ask for proof. Surely she is innocent until proven guilty.

Cavagirl · 09/06/2021 08:51

OP at the time when they handed her the fine, did she not say "but I was wearing my seat belt?" and then have a subsequent discussion with them?
This all sounds a bit strange.
In your shoes, maybe your DM is correct, maybe she's mistaken, but if £100 isn't a lot of money to her as you say, just pay it and move on with life. A 70 year old woman does not need a court case hanging over her!

MargaretThursday · 09/06/2021 08:55

You know. I've always worn a seatbelt, even back in the 80s dm always insisted we wore them. It does feel odd not wearing one, and I always thought it was such a reflex reaction that it was impossible to forget. However there was one time about a couple of years ago. I got in the car, put on the seatbelt, then dh came running out to tell me there was an urgent phonecall for me, he handed me the phone, and I was really scared because this was from someone who does do urgent phone calls. In my mind I was trying to work out how quickly I could pack and get to them.
It wasn't that bad, and so shortly afterwards i set off down the drive, still feeling a bit shaken. We'd got about 50m up the road when one of the dc said "mum, you've forgotten your seatbelt."
I had. I'd flung it off in preparation to go and pack and forgotten to put it back on in the heat of the moment.

I've never forgotten before or after.
Now the thing was before that happened, I would have said I could never forget it. In fact, my first reaction when dc said that was to say "I hadn't", because I "knew" I'd put it on, but the evidence was there. I wasn't wearing it.

Over the last 14 months, presumably she hasn't been going out so much, so it may be a much less instinctive thing to do than it was, too.

I think this is far more likely than the police making up a charge. You've got to have 2 police officers who decide together to stop a car for no reason (they have to have reason to stop a car, I think) and then make up a charge, that can be seen on bodycamera.
Far more likely that they stopped the car because they could see that she wasn't wearing a seatbelt, and then inspected the car (which I believe is fairly typical behaviour).

4fingerKitKat · 09/06/2021 08:59

What’s your mum’s exact version of events here? When they issued her with the fine, what did she say? Presumably she said something at the time to contest the assertion she wasn’t wearing her seatbelt?

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