Is this normal or not for a four year old

[loverloverlover]

Hi
I'm really struggling with my 4 year old at the moment and don't know how much of it is normal for her age group or if there's something else going on?
She never listens, ever. She ignores me and my husband. She's really destructive and just rips stuff up, throws things, breaks them. She hits me a lot, slaps me round the face, kicks. She hurts her little brother all the time and is always hitting him and kicking him and being horrible. She bites all the time. It's like everything we ask her not to do she does even more.

We try to be gentle and loving and kind but end up shouting and feeling guilty every day. She only wants to eat crisps and she screams and shouts and is so challenging! I feel like a terrible mum as she was s so grumpy sometimes and seems so angry!

Her pre school teacher say she's very energetic and sassy. Her childminder says she's very lovely and helpful and kind. She does this rocking back and forth thing a lot too where she just rocks and rocks and won't stop. Apparently it's a comfort thing and we're trying not to worry but it's starting to get frustrating as she does it at school and dance class and people notice and make comments.

She sleeps terribly. Wakes up a lot. She still wants a dummy. She is so lovely sometimes and funny and happy but then she drives us mad by hitting her brother and shouting and kicking me and refusing to listen and climbing on the sides and jumping on the couch and pulling every book out and ripping them up. She won't brush her teeth unless we do it, she is potty trained but just pees herself at home. We spend lots of one on one time with her, we do lots with her, we're out every weekend rambling in the woods and on her bike and trying to have fun but it's so hard!

How old is your ds? Did her life get disrupted by his arrival? Has she hit milestones appropriately? You might want to speak to your hv or gp. This behaviour is extreme and any differences will only become more marked at school. She may be able to suppress impulses in some circumstances but not others,

Hi. This sounds so difficult for you.

There is so much going on and even though you've given a lot of detail it's hard to say whether it's behavioural , reaction to life that is happening or social communication difficulty.

Does she takes what you say literally?
How does she play ?
Does she find following a request hard?
Do you only give her attention when she performs, so has learnt it's the only way to get attention ?
What has happened directly before she hits you, her brother etc. you could write down what happened on each one so you can see a pattern.
How does she respond to routine or when routine is changed ?
Is there a strong routine in school and childminder ?

It may help to talk to your GP or health visitor.

Sorry lots of questions.

It’s not my experience of 4 year olds, no.
They obviously can be bad at listening and very good at ignoring. They do have tempers and tantrums.
The violence- hitting, kicking and biting all sounds very extreme in a child with no recognised special needs.
Does she behave like that at Pre-school? Are school flagging up any issues at all?
Honestly, reading again, I have to say, no.
It doesn’t sounds normal. At all.
It sounds very angry and violent and destructive.

For me it really depends if she's just four or nearer five.

DD (despite being very vocal) had really poor impulse control until around 4.5 years... Only in the six months before 5 could she seem to control her outbursts (which were often centred around slapping, despite having never been slapped, or seen any slapping in the home, which was gutting).

I would be starting to investigate for SEN. It's not 'normal' behaviour for a 4 yo, not even one that's pissed off about the little imposter.

I would go through the pre school rather than the GP, & forget the HV entirely.

I'm sorry, I know what you want to hear is 'yep perfectly normal' etc.

I have a 4 year old. She has attitude for days. Her behavior is difficult at times, she yells/stamps feet if we ask her to do something she doesn't want to etc but nothing at all like what you have outlined. I don't think what you have described is typical and I'd probably seek further help. I'd keep a written record of everything, what happens, when, triggers etc and start with GP maybe. You have my sympathies, it's really tricky trying to know how to best help them when their behaviour is trying your patience.

Thanks so much for the replies, I wrote the initial post in a bit of a hurry so more info for those asking

She isn't actually 4 yet, she's 4 at the end of may but it was easier to write 4 than very nearly 4!

She hit all her mile stones fine. Was walking at 11 months, is very articulate, can write her name and do simple maths and loves drawing and painting.

She loves playing with other children. In a park she always looks for others to play with and will say hello and introduce herself to everyone. Childminder says she plays really well with other children and has friends she plays with often. School have said she is very determined and doesn't like doing things unless she chooses to. They've also said she can be cheeky. Neither cm or school have flagged any violent behaviour or naughtiness beyond 'she was a bit shouty today' or wouldn't come in from playing outside unless asked several times.

She was just 3 when brother was born. She says she loves him, she is always getting him food or telling us to get him a yoghurt or water etc. But then if he crawls towards her toys she will hit him on the head or slap his hand and he gets really upset. Sometimes if she walks past him she just kicks him for no reason. It's at those points that one of us will shout as it's just a reaction to her hurting him. We always apologise for shouting and tell her we use kind hands and words but she just ignores us and carries on hurting him.

Some more answers

I think there is definitely much more routine at school and childminders than with us. I'm still bf and co sleeping so feel that a lot of my time is spent with baby. I do make sure I have one on one time with her every single day and we do fun things and I always do bath and bed and breakfast and make her packed lunch with her every morning.

Usually hitting me is because I've said no or not given in to something. For example, tonight she wanted to watch something on my phone and I said no and she hit me on the head. I asked her not to hurt me and she hit me again saying don't say no to me.

We've definitely noticed the hitting and rocking are much worse when she's tired. We've tried limiting screen time, limiting sugar, makes no difference!

We've never ever hit her so I don't know where the hitting comes from?
I guess the main worries I have are

• not listening. She just keeps doing the same horrible things over and over like hitting DS and me and no matter how we deal with it; time outs, time ins, gently removing him, gently removing her, redirecting her attention, shouting, nothing changes.

• the rocking. It's embarrassing and frustrating and she won't stop. Google instantly jumps to autism but she has no other signs so I don't think it's that but I don't want her bullied or picked on for it yet don't know how to stop it. We tell her to cross her legs, we tell her to stop, we get her busy doing something else, we model how she could sit but she just carries on

• shouting and tantrums and just having such a dramatic response to everything!

It sounds very difficult for you op. Definitely ask for a referral at the gp, they can at least shed some light on what they think is happening. Remember autism for example IS a spectrum, no one child is the same and they don't need to tick every box. I have a ds with asd and people say oh, you wouldn't know!
Not saying it is asd but it is worth asking for referral.
It could well be a reaction to baby brother but time will tell.

Drawing attention to the rocking may well make her more conscious of it and make it worse. Don't feel embarrassed, she is just a little girl. Lots of picking up the positives and noticing when she does something good. How about a star chart of some sort?

The signs of autism can be different in girls. Not saying it is bit my autistic girl was reading at 3 and good at maths, very verbal etc.

The rocking sounds like self soothing/stimming.

Also, I think school are talking in 'code' from what you've said. Sassy could be interpreted as cheeky. Energetic could read as hyperactive.

I think your Mum instincts alarm bells are going off so you should listen to them. If she doesn't have SEN then she won't get a diagnosis. It can take years for assessments to happen so it gives time for everyone to see if it is an age thing that she grows out of or something else going on.

Toothbrushing, potty training might be associated with sensory issues - does she fuss about clothing, labels, food etc
Have you had any help with her sleep issues, has it always been poor. It sounds as if your boundaries need reinforcing, to hit once is enough don't allow her the opportunity to get attention that way a second time.

She doesn't seem to have any sensory issues. She's not fussy about clothes, loves being dirty or wet and playing outside! Happy to play in sand. Obsessed with water table and messy play at school.

I hear people say don't let her hit you but HOW. How do I stop it?

Her sleep has always been appalling. We've seen sleep consultants and the dr and health visitor as she's never slept longer than 4 hours at a time and wakes up a lot but they all said some children are like that. That sleep averages are anecdotal and that disrupted sleep is more common than people think and that she's fine and just doesn't need a lot of sleep!

Stimming is not ASD exclusive, but is very characteristic. As others have said, autism presents very differently in girls who are better at masking. How is her imagination? Can she make up games? Make a conversation between two dolls etc?

All kids are different to it’s hard to compare, but I would be concerned with some of the behaviours you’ve described: like the rocking.

Could you call a HV or GP and ask their professional opinion?

Very active imagination, loves making up stories and making her animals talk to each other and drawing pictures then explaining them to us in great detail!

Focus on 1 change at a time. Say start with no hitting her brother. Have a talk to her about why she hits him. Listen to her and give her an alternative response. ( maybe telling him to go away) and explain that if she hits him she will have to leave the room. And stick to it. She’s 4 years old so 4 mins out is fine. Try this.

My 2 nearly 3 year old has ASD. He hits. When stop this by a) Monitoring environment/ triggers as it often happens when he's over stimulated. He needs, when home all day, at least a break every 3 hours with no one else near him. For him a 10 minute break to watch calming videos on YouTube works. Each kid is different though. Maybe try and keep a diary of the hitting etc to see can you ID triggers? b) if he does hit he gets a loud, stern “NO" and then we move the person he hit away and pay them all the attention.
Please see a Paediatrician. I'm not saying your child is on the spectrum but there are enough questions to seek further advice. Poor sleep is common in ASD. Teeth cleaning/ potty training maybe sensory related. Girls also “mask" much better than boys, she maybe able to keep it together somewhat in preschool and not when she gets home. Also, read the coke can analogy. It may help.

All possible sen aside you need to find a way to tackle the violence.
What does happen when she hits or bites your or her baby brother!? What are the actual, immediate consequences? Because there need to be some. And they need to be applied consistently.
When mine were small if they hit or kicked then I would immediately remove them from my space. Try and keep my temper and give a firm ‘NO, we do not hit/kick/bite’
We used time out and did a lot of ignoring of temper tantrums. Encourage an apology and a kiss better.
I would suggest she’s a bit old for just being told ‘gentle hands’
I would also make sure I was picking up and making a big fuss of the baby when she’s hurt him. A big fuss of her when she’s caring for him.

My dd did the rocking thing - do you mean kind of getting in almost all-fours frog like position and rocking back and forth?! Mine is 10 now and completely fine, hasn't rocked since she was about the age your dd is now.

Don't feel bad shouting at her when she hits her younger sibling. She shouldn't be doing that and I certainly wouldn't have put up with it. Better that she learns that now before she does any damage.

I agree that you need a referral to a paediatrician. This doesn’t sound “normal”. My daughter is autistic so I really know how it feels to write a post like this and want everyone to say it’s fine!

It’s not necessarily autism. There’s a whole range of developmental conditions but it sounds like it’s worth pursuing for all your sakes.

I would say her behaviour is at the extreme end of normal, even for 3. It might be anger at a new sibling, or tiredness from consistently poor sleep, or a child who needs firm boundaries and instead has gentle parenting which occasionally snaps!

But I think it is worth asking the preschool to level with you as to whether they feel she may have some additional needs. They see so many children it is likely they can see it if it is there.

Also don't worry particularly about the slapping and where she can have learnt to slap - all children learn how to do that, it doesn't suggest a violent home life!

There does seem to be some reaction to her brother and getting your attention.
When did she start rocking? Was it after her brother was born ?
Do you play with her without her brother when it's not because she's done a good or bad behaviour,just because you do for no reason.
All children react to their feelings and what is happening around the.
She may benefit from a good routine. Baby led may not be great for her even though its good for you're son.
It may help to read up on sibling rivalry and psychological Impact to changes in a family for a toddler.