Is this normal or not for a four year old

[loverloverlover]

Hi
I'm really struggling with my 4 year old at the moment and don't know how much of it is normal for her age group or if there's something else going on?
She never listens, ever. She ignores me and my husband. She's really destructive and just rips stuff up, throws things, breaks them. She hits me a lot, slaps me round the face, kicks. She hurts her little brother all the time and is always hitting him and kicking him and being horrible. She bites all the time. It's like everything we ask her not to do she does even more.

We try to be gentle and loving and kind but end up shouting and feeling guilty every day. She only wants to eat crisps and she screams and shouts and is so challenging! I feel like a terrible mum as she was s so grumpy sometimes and seems so angry!

Her pre school teacher say she's very energetic and sassy. Her childminder says she's very lovely and helpful and kind. She does this rocking back and forth thing a lot too where she just rocks and rocks and won't stop. Apparently it's a comfort thing and we're trying not to worry but it's starting to get frustrating as she does it at school and dance class and people notice and make comments.

She sleeps terribly. Wakes up a lot. She still wants a dummy. She is so lovely sometimes and funny and happy but then she drives us mad by hitting her brother and shouting and kicking me and refusing to listen and climbing on the sides and jumping on the couch and pulling every book out and ripping them up. She won't brush her teeth unless we do it, she is potty trained but just pees herself at home. We spend lots of one on one time with her, we do lots with her, we're out every weekend rambling in the woods and on her bike and trying to have fun but it's so hard!

My eldest was very challenging. A lot of the behaviour you describe plus other sensory issues. We worried for a long time but in the end, a very clear set of home rules and consequences was the answer. The book “how to talk so kids will listen” is a good way to get out of the habit of just telling her no or resorting to shouting. Also removing her and taking her to her room if she hits or hurts at home. Constantly saying no telling her not to do something isn’t going to cut it for a spirited child! It sounds like she’s thriving out of the home so there’s a lot of potential for a quick turnaround on her behaviour with you.

Children need boundaries to feel secure and loved. By not setting any you are harming her far more than the odd loud voice might when she’s hitting her brother. I would speak to your health visit - she might be able to recommend you a parenting course. Seeing no boundaries or consequences for hitting, apologising to her after you’ve told her odd, and not brushing her teeth at 3/4 all sound like you first need to look at your parenting to get to the bottom of your daughters behaviour...

And you haven’t addressed my point about her hearing - you urgently need to get this checked to rule out glue ear especially as you say she often talks in a loud voice.

[quote loverloverlover]@MeadowHay oh bugger, I didn't realise! [/quote]
If you report those posts/ ask @mnhq they might be able to edit them for you take the names out. It was one post with each name in so read back through and report those ones maybe.

she could be sensory seeking in that she likes mud and bieng wet and the feel of sand. sensory issues can be an over sensitivity (leading to avoiding) or an under sensitivity. (seeking out sensations, like bloody eating too much, (dc and I) )

hypermobility makes her more likely to have autism, and asthma and allergies and gut issues and bladder issues and things like rheumatoid arthriits possibly. (i only remember the ones we suffer with)

be direct. tell her firmly no hitting.

oh and stop the w sitting. not allowed. (she will be more likely to be suffering with hip pain when she is my age if she keeps doing it, I wish someone had told me not to w sit. reaping the whirlwind now)

I can give a bit of insight into the body rocking. I'm 34 and I've been a body rocker all my life. It's a compulsion and helps me to regulate my emotions. As a child I needed to rock a lot as I was a very anxious and socially awkward. I remember when I was told to stop or that it was embarrassing it made it so much worse for me. To me it felt soothing and natural and when I was asked to stop I felt ashamed and sick to my stomach like having rage that I wasn't allowed to release. Encourage your daughter to rock in a safe space before and after anything that may cause her stress eg school. I've learned to control my rocking and only need to do it after very stressful events. I hope this helps ❤️

Our ASD Son 'chugged' all the time, we managed to get him to understand it was perfectly fine to do it but it was a at home or bedroom thing.

Girls with ASD can be so much harder to diagnose than boys, most don't get picked up till early teens when it all starts going wrong. Push to see someone.

Google infant gratification disorder, re the rocking. People are quick to jump to asd but the rocking can genuinely just be because it feels nice and it's a comfort thing.

Sorry if I’m repeating I keep losing my post!

Some of this really could be sensory. The messy/water play etc could be seeking (not a problem in itself obviously) and the crisps too.
Rocking is soothing for a vestibular seeker.
Wetting can be a sign of poor interroception.

Can’t add more to what others have said about female autism (I’m autistic and I have a boy and girl who both are) - but I agree it’s worth trying to see someone.

Given the severity of the behavioural issues though it might be worth considering a private OT if it is affordable, while you wait for the assessment process. I really wish I’d known more about sensory stuff when my two were little.

And yes definitely get hearing checked.

Try and encourage not sitting in a W because of the hyper mobility issues but the rocking doesn’t harm anyone presumably, like glitter says it’s helpful to her - stopping her might be contributing to her anger 💐

I agree with @Smartiepants79 and others about the discipline. I have a 4yo and a baby, and if he is physically aggressive we remove him immediately, short time out and a warning. We also confiscate the toy if he's being rough with it. He is strong willed and responds best to clear boundaries, we have to be calm but firm.

Sorry but I think gentle parenting is wishy washy nonsense. Look up "positive parenting". I rate the website ahaparenting and the book "How to talk so little kids will listen".

Others have commented on the ASD angle and I don't have enough knowledge to add, only that I think you should request an assessment as it would surely be better to know either way.

www.ahaparenting.com/videos/the-sweet-spot-between-strict-and-permissive-parenting

www.verywellfamily.com/are-you-an-authoritative-parent-why-this-is-the-best-approach-3964005

Firstly asd is very different in girls.
Secondly I wouldnt jump to asd if that behaviour is only at home.

As others have said, autistic children and adults can mask in settings outside the home, so ASD should not be ruled out if the autistic behaviours are only seen at home.

@SkepticalCat

*Firstly asd is very different in girls. Secondly I wouldnt jump to asd if that behaviour is only at home.*

As others have said, autistic children and adults can mask in settings outside the home, so ASD should not be ruled out if the autistic behaviours are only seen at home.

Yes, DD1 was such an expert masker with her autism and anxiety that the school refused to even let her see the school nurse.

There can also be different triggers in different places, such as sensory triggers. My DS struggled much more in school because of the noise (his speech suddenly improved drastically when we deregistered him as well due to reduced stress). Both of my DCs were like different people in restaurants because of the lighting, the noise from clinking cutlery and glasses. They hated shops too and I also feel different in the mall because it’s like an assault on my senses.

At home it could be things like background noise, the piercing cry of her sibling.

Smell is often a trigger we miss but I found out recently it can be the first sense our brain processes. So it’s worth looking at any smells that might be bothering her (different laundry stuff, your perfume, air fresheners...) and also any scents that comfort and ground her (I keep a little pot of fruit scented wax on me but stuff like lip balm is great for this).

Obviously none of us can say if she is autistic or has sensory processing difficulties etc but I do think it’s worth considering. The behaviour does need addressing too and I can’t advise on that but you do need to see if there’s something underlying it.

So much of what you describe is similar to our 4y4m old, was actually on here after hitting the wall over the bank holiday, looking for support groups for parents! Goes without saying he can be funny, affectionate, charming, wonderful. But all the rest too. Endless screaming/breaking/hitting sibling/biting/tearing things apart, not the rocking but can't stop moving, makes funny little noises when walking and flicking his arms. Literally incapable of doing anything we ask, however we ask or tell him. For 4 years we have been firm, consistent, clear, strong boundaries, never giving in to tantrums, telling off, removing from situation, as well as trying to praise/ model/ encourage good behaviours - every one of the parenting methods in this thread - but doesn't change his behaviour. He does the same thing again 20 mins later.

From the pits of despair we paid to see an educational psychologist who said he showed hyperactive/impulsive ADHD traits and some sensory-seeking issues but he was v young to be able to say, but put us on waiting list for OT and we're mid psych assessment. But as for normal/not normal, it was around then I started to accept some of it might be behavioural differences, rather than him being a completely normal boy who had just been parented horrendously by me and my husband. Of course we are so far from model parents I can't even start, but it's been a v different experience from our other 2 children and accepting he might have some different needs was a bit of a relief.

Admittedly it hasn't stopped the behaviour! And frankly I am done in, we are still trying everything, latest this weekend is a "kind jar" - putting in copper coins for kind/helpful/non-destructive behaviour, counting up and trading them in etc for a prize, has been vaguely effective for 48h. But "maybe not normal" helped me with a change of perspective and stopping the feeling that we were all, endlessly, failing.

@NewOnHere12345

So much of what you describe is similar to our 4y4m old, was actually on here after hitting the wall over the bank holiday, looking for support groups for parents! Goes without saying he can be funny, affectionate, charming, wonderful. But all the rest too. Endless screaming/breaking/hitting sibling/biting/tearing things apart, not the rocking but can't stop moving, makes funny little noises when walking and flicking his arms. Literally incapable of doing anything we ask, however we ask or tell him. For 4 years we have been firm, consistent, clear, strong boundaries, never giving in to tantrums, telling off, removing from situation, as well as trying to praise/ model/ encourage good behaviours - every one of the parenting methods in this thread - but doesn't change his behaviour. He does the same thing again 20 mins later.

From the pits of despair we paid to see an educational psychologist who said he showed hyperactive/impulsive ADHD traits and some sensory-seeking issues but he was v young to be able to say, but put us on waiting list for OT and we're mid psych assessment. But as for normal/not normal, it was around then I started to accept some of it might be behavioural differences, rather than him being a completely normal boy who had just been parented horrendously by me and my husband. Of course we are so far from model parents I can't even start, but it's been a v different experience from our other 2 children and accepting he might have some different needs was a bit of a relief.

Admittedly it hasn't stopped the behaviour! And frankly I am done in, we are still trying everything, latest this weekend is a "kind jar" - putting in copper coins for kind/helpful/non-destructive behaviour, counting up and trading them in etc for a prize, has been vaguely effective for 48h. But "maybe not normal" helped me with a change of perspective and stopping the feeling that we were all, endlessly, failing.

Thank you so much for this comment. I needed to hear that I wasn't alone 💚