Is this normal or not for a four year old

[loverloverlover]

Hi
I'm really struggling with my 4 year old at the moment and don't know how much of it is normal for her age group or if there's something else going on?
She never listens, ever. She ignores me and my husband. She's really destructive and just rips stuff up, throws things, breaks them. She hits me a lot, slaps me round the face, kicks. She hurts her little brother all the time and is always hitting him and kicking him and being horrible. She bites all the time. It's like everything we ask her not to do she does even more.

We try to be gentle and loving and kind but end up shouting and feeling guilty every day. She only wants to eat crisps and she screams and shouts and is so challenging! I feel like a terrible mum as she was s so grumpy sometimes and seems so angry!

Her pre school teacher say she's very energetic and sassy. Her childminder says she's very lovely and helpful and kind. She does this rocking back and forth thing a lot too where she just rocks and rocks and won't stop. Apparently it's a comfort thing and we're trying not to worry but it's starting to get frustrating as she does it at school and dance class and people notice and make comments.

She sleeps terribly. Wakes up a lot. She still wants a dummy. She is so lovely sometimes and funny and happy but then she drives us mad by hitting her brother and shouting and kicking me and refusing to listen and climbing on the sides and jumping on the couch and pulling every book out and ripping them up. She won't brush her teeth unless we do it, she is potty trained but just pees herself at home. We spend lots of one on one time with her, we do lots with her, we're out every weekend rambling in the woods and on her bike and trying to have fun but it's so hard!

My children are almost the same age as yours, but the other way round. My son (4 today) has been referred for autism assessment and I do see some similarities.
We are learning (easier said than done!) not to shout if he does something bad, as he just doesn't respond to that at all. Since the baby's been on the move, he's been pushing her when she comes near his toys. He gets time out for that and lots of praise if there's positive behaviour towards her. He's been pushing some of the other kids in preschool and they've tackled it in a similar way with success.
He is destructive at times, eg will suddenly tear up a book or something and I haven't figured that one out yet. He was slow to potty train and bedtime is a two hour performance, he is extremely beholden to routines, but also very bright, affectionate, funny and energetic. He's great with numbers and has a good grasp of phonics.
With the rocking, I wonder if a wobble cushion or something might help? Otherwise, I would just ignore/not draw attention to it.

What discipline techniques do you use? How in line are you and your husband?
It could be something more or she could be bright and pushing the boundaries.
If you aren't great at being firm, watch some super nanny. She may need very clear boundaries and reinforcement from you both.
It doesn't mean it's easy or it's you. Even within 'normal', some kids are much harder work than others.
At least trying an approach will give you a better idea of how she responds

Have you had her hearing tested?

@optimistic40 yes! She kind of sits in a W position and just rocks and rocks. It's awkward as she'll do it anywhere! How did you tackle it?

Sounds like she’s sensory seeking, have a look at SPD. A vivid imagination it an indicator of ASD in girls.

Also the W position is bad for hips, has she got hypermobility?

Strong imagination is a good sign. Is she able to recognise emotion in others? If you make up a story, can she infer how the characters would be feeling?

doclibrary-rcht.cornwall.nhs.uk/GET/d10359033

Symptoms of glue ear including talking loudly and behaving badly (as they get tired from straining to hear and frustrated).

Also I agree she also sounds sensory seeking.

I think you are right about needing firmer boundaries. We both hate how much we shout and always apologise. I try to be very gentle but maybe it's just shit and I need to be tougher.
I will ask her school for advice. We did speak to the childminder who said it was confusing as it was like we were speaking about a different child as edited by MNHQ identifiable is so well behaved there!

She is brilliant with emotions and will say oh x is sad today or y was upset because.. she can read faces and can say he looks angry or he looks happy etc, we use a lot of books to talk about what people are feeling

But on the teeth thing - she’s much too young to brush her teeth herself. It is recommended parents brush children’s teeth until they are about 7. No way should you be trusting a 3 year old to clean them well enough herself.

Obviously not medical advice but it doesn't sound like ASD. Recognising emotion in others, solid communication etc are early struggles for children with ASD.

Getting her hearing checked would be a great first call, could be something physical rather than behavioural/developmental but in the meantime, immediate consequences for hitting would be super important and social stories to help reconcile the feelings with the actions. "X gets so sad when you hit him, it hurts and he doesn't like it. What can you do to help X feel better?"

I don’t want to be unkind but your discipline does sound a bit wishy washy. She’s 4, she is showing she needs firmer boundaries.
I would speak to school as I am very surprised she doesn’t exhibit these behaviours at all there.
You can be firm with her without shouting or being ‘mean’. Of fact it’s best to at least appear to be completely calm. Forceful voice that shows you mean it, don’t get dragged into arguing with her. Have clear expectations and clear consequences and both of you be consistent.
You don’t need to apologise for disciplining her when she is physically hurting you or a small baby.
There may be that there is something deeper going on here that’s worth investigating but you still need to start looking for more effective strategies to teach her how to behave.

I'm an autistic woman, OP, and was v like your daughter at that age. I had a huge imagination, was super creative and played out with friends all the time.

I am excellent at masking.

That rocking your daughter does is stimming. Whether she would get a full diagnosis of autism or sensory processing disorder or not I cannot tell you, but the rocking is her way of regulating herself. Do not, and I cannot stress this enough, try to stop her from doing this.

She's masking for the childminder and school.

That is typical ASD girl behaviour.

When she hits the baby give all your attention to the baby - tell her no firmly but if she’s doing it for attention don’t give it to her - give it to the baby instead.
I agree - you don’t sound like you discipline very well. Why are so you fearful of disciplining? Often it relates to a parents issues about shouting/discipline from their past. If she is hurting the baby you absolutely need to be firm - shouting would be normal. You should never apologise to her for your discipline - you are just undermining yourself!

I didn't tackle it. She was actually 4 when she stopped, I just remembered. She was at school and embarrassed to keep doing it! I had been told to let her continue as she was hyper mobile and might be "strengthening herself". It looked a bit ... different to a strengthening exercise, tbh.

She is hyper mobile too!

I read a lot about gentle parenting and how shouting and strictness is harmful long term so I worry about disciplining her to be honest. I know I need to toughen up but I don't really know how to.

It does sound outside the norm and I would ask pre school if they see anything outside of the norm when she is there (though some kids can mask their difficulties outside of home). Also speak to your HV to see if they can help.

I don't think you should be apologising when you shout at her if she is hitting. It's probably giving mixed messages which can't be helping.

Hi OP, just wanted to say you seem have mentioned both your children's names, male name in one post and female name in another. I am not sure if they are their real names and if so whether this was intentional or it just slipped out. I just wanted to point it out in case you haven't realised as otherwise this thread could easily identify you.

To stop the hitting you grab her hand as it’s coming towards you (or towards the baby) and physically hold it back saying ‘no hitting!’as you do this.To me the hitting is the most extreme element of all the behaviour you describe and would make me worry that she is feeling really out of control.

Havent read all replies so sorry if I repeat.
Firstly asd is very different in girls.
Secondly I wouldnt jump to asd if that behaviour is only at home.

I would be putting consequences in place for hitting you or baby or anyone. - use a visual chart, take away a toy, time out what will affect her the most? Do you continue what you are doing with her after she hits? Or drop it and walk away- no attention for hitting? She must say sorry for hurting others. Both decide on your actions and stick to it.
Alongside this put a behaviour chart up or a jar with tokens (could be toys/counters/cubes) write up house rules- only a few- eg no hitting, no destroying items, tidy up toys. She gets tokens for listening, doing kind things, could take away tokens if miss behaviour. Decide on amount and then she gets a reward- treat from a box if pocket money toys, milkshake etc.
What happens if she rips books? All books away? That book in the bin?
Use visual symbols to show no.

Talk about feels, how does she feel- use photos/symbols to let her choose. How does brother feel when crying in pain after being hit? How do you feel after being hit? Let her choose.

Asd covers all behaviours, lots of children rock for comfort that becomes a habit- dont tell her to stop try to replace it with a fiddle cuff, cuddly toy, blanket etc. This doesnt mean shes asd. Lots of asd children like sand and water and messy play, lots like imaginative play, asd covers all things.
I'm an asd teacher.
Meet with the teacher and ask them about behaviours. Do they use visual symbols at end of playtime? Now and next boards? Is the shouty behaviour at transition times? Is the hitting during certain times? Or when no attention is being given? Work with the school tell.them about the home behaviour get them to reinforce the no hitting is acceptable show dd that you will be telling her teacher if she hits.

Definitely united front from all adults with her behaviour. Know the consequences you will all give in a different tone of voice. No tolerating the hitting.

@MeadowHay oh bugger, I didn't realise!

@loverloverlover

I read a lot about gentle parenting and how shouting and strictness is harmful long term so I worry about disciplining her to be honest. I know I need to toughen up but I don't really know how to.

Aw, I agree with you about being gentle, but would say GENTLE but FIRM. Look up authoritative parenting - you are still the parent, and your child wants a parent, and some rules and consequences. It doesn't mean being unkind or harming your little ones.