Offensive terms / genuine question

[artquejtion]

On another thread people find the term 'Irish twin' offensive, I am Irish, born and bred there, and am one of those 'offensive terms' , but I don't find it offensive at all, never even realised it could be construed as offensive until I joined Mumsnet. I have lots of Irish friends and relatives who either refer to themselves as 'offensive term' or refer to their kids as that.

I am really curious as to why it is offensive, is it because of the tradition of large Irish families in the past ? therefore seen as racist or something?.

Is it only offensive if the close in birth children are not Irish ?

Genuine question, no flaming pls. Mods delete if deemed an inappropriate thread.

I guess it's because it plays up to the idea of Irish Catholic people being prolific breeders because they don't use contraception and are a bit thick and animalistic.

I accept that lots of Irish people don't find it offensive but I'm not Irish so it really isn't my place to decide. I just avoid the term. If it were "African twins", I don't think it would get much free pass, and rightly so of course.

Irish catholic heritage, and don't find the term offensive

But I recognise that other people do, so I don't use it much and certainly not if publishing globally (eg when posting on MN).

I think it's seen as fine within the community itself but when people outside of that community start using it to perpetuate a stereotype it can be seen as offensive.

It's basically saying that no birth control and many children with a small age gap = poor Irish Catholics.

FWIW my Grandparents are Irish Catholic and use the term themselves and probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if others used it but the above is how they explained it to me when I asked what it meant.

It was my post about my cousin that people took issue with on the jilted thread. Bit strange to be told how offensive I was being to Irish people.

I’m Irish, MN is the only place that any offence has ever been taken with this term in my experience. It’s a term that’s freely and affectionately used amongst my family and Irish friends. I’ve discussed it with my family and they think the reaction was batshit. We will continue to use it at home. It’s an affectionate term for us, borne from years of my cousins being asked if they were twins and my auntie replying with a wink “near enough. They’re Irish Twins!”.

But this is the last place I’ll refer to it on MN .

I saw that thread, and it was noticeable that there were more posts from Irish people saying they were OK with it, than from (usually unspecified heritage) people saying it was awful.

But the underlying point remains. Once you know there are people who find a term offensive, don't use it unless you're happy to have the thread derailed.

See also: colour coding babies, hun, referring to women as girls etc

But the underlying point remains. Once you know there are people who find a term offensive, don't use it unless you're happy to have the thread derailed.

I feel awful about the thread getting derailed but I genuinely didn’t know anyone found it offensive until two posters told me off. I wish I’d never posted to be honest. And no, I won’t use it again on MN.

I think that's a good point - sometimes you really don't know that a phrase that's commonly used in your community is found offensive elsewhere. Chalk it up to experience

I think using it when you're Irish and it applies to your family is entirely different from a non Irish person using it.

I wouldn't use it personally. I saw the other thread and did raise an eyebrow as it wasn't clear that she was Irish herself (I guessed that she probably was, so didn't get too het up about it).

I think there is an issue with Irish racism being minimised, and a phrase like this feeds into tropes about Irish people that are unfair. Like pp have said, historic British idea that Irish people are stupid or uncivilised that goes with it I think. I remember telling my Irish SIL about a toddler having ‘a paddy’, a phrase commonplace for a tantrum when I grew up. Thankfully I heard myself out loud and realised without her having to say it, and we talked about it. That’s the legacy of British colonialism, that our language is littered with condescending tropes about other cultures. Are you in the uk op? Possibly terms like this are more offensive to Irish people living in the uk than those living in Ireland, where they are less reminded of the history regularly? I’m not Irish so can’t say. Know my DH has been relieved when I stepped in to say something about a stupid meme sent on family WhatsApp about an Irish man and bombs - these little comments are so insidious, it can be hard for those from that culture to respond without feeling/looking petty in the eyes of some. That’s how everyday racism works.

@NameChangedForThisFeb21

It was my post about my cousin that people took issue with on the jilted thread. Bit strange to be told how offensive I was being to Irish people.

I’m Irish, MN is the only place that any offence has ever been taken with this term in my experience. It’s a term that’s freely and affectionately used amongst my family and Irish friends. I’ve discussed it with my family and they think the reaction was batshit. We will continue to use it at home. It’s an affectionate term for us, borne from years of my cousins being asked if they were twins and my auntie replying with a wink “near enough. They’re Irish Twins!”.

But this is the last place I’ll refer to it on MN .

Yes, it was your post.

I saw that people commented how sad whatever you had written was, (I didn't see your post) and then later saw others explain that the term 'Irish twins' was offensive.

I have to agree with you, hence why I started this thread, I personally don't know one Irish person who would find this offensive. My cousin, 28 yrs, well educated Irish solicitor, announced the birth of her second child as an Irish twin a few weeks ago, 11 months age difference.

So it is not even a generation thing, or a religious thing, or an educational or economic inequality, nor the number of kids you have.

Haha, we should ask Joe Duffy to ask the question on his show.

My nan was Irish and had at least 2 years between each of her 7 babies

I’m not Irish - when I was young and heard the phrase, it was actually explained to me as Irish people being too stupid to have their twins at the same time, a sort of “they get everything wrong”. Which IMO makes it a lot more offensive than just the implication of having a lot of children too close together.

So maybe some of the people who find it offensive have heard that explanation of it?

Agreed though, it’s one of those phrases that people within the community can use if they’re happy with it, but those of us who aren’t Irish shouldn’t use!

I don't think it's offensive...I'm irish. My brother and sister are Irish twins. My daddy is an Irish twin both above and younger lol.

Few friends also have Irish twins who are still young

I'm Irish and I don't like the phrase. As well as the reasons above, it calls to mind the use of "Irish" to mean "not quite right". So twins, but not real ones, they're a bit Irish, if that makes sense.

Not quite as bad as having a paddy, but in the same realm to me.

Cross post with @OneCalamerra who put it better.

I thought it must be about one child born in September and the other one in August so that they would be in the same school year like twins would be. I wouldn't have thought it meant that the children would be born in the same year but in different school years or just under a year between them.

I just googled and found this explanation on Slang dictionary

"Irish twins is a slang expression for siblings born less than a year apart from each other. While some people intend it affectionately, it does stereotype Irish culture, making it mildly offensive.

Early instances appears in American newspapers, suggesting the term coincides with the rise of Irish immigration to the US during the Great Famine—and xenophobic attitudes toward the newly arrived immigrants.

The stereotype may well be Protestant in origin, as Irish twins are also called Catholic twins—the Irish traditionally being Catholic and birth control historically forbidden.

Since the 19th century, Irish twins has gone on to describe any siblings, whether they are Irish or not, born less than a year apart, give or take."

Maybe as society evolves the term "Baldwin twins" will be used to refer to babies born to celebrities like Alec and Hilaria Balwin

(I think the Balwins had a 5 month gap with their latest...surrogacy for one of them)

Sorry Baldwin of course.

I made the mistake of saying "being Karen". Got lambasted by an older Karen for using Karen. Didn't apologise. No regrets.

I have only just learned here about having a paddy as being similarly offensive! I think that regardless of Irish people finding it inoffensive- it is still based on a negative stereotype and therefore shouldn’t be used. I remember the Paddy jokes and people being called Irish for making mistakes or being dumb. And it’s not okay.

@YouJustDoYou

I made the mistake of saying "being Karen". Got lambasted by an older Karen for using Karen. Didn't apologise. No regrets.

That's because it's a lazy misogynistic insult that perpetuates the age old stereotype of women being loud and overbearing and obnoxious every time they don't act like a doormat. It's the latest term for nag, scold, fishwife, harpy, the lot of em. It's just tossed out as a lazy and crap shorthand insult for any woman who disagrees when you.

Try harder. If you have a half decent vocabulary, it shouldn't be difficult. "Overbearing bolshy gobshite" does the job just fine and sounds better anyway. If you're really stuck, the Shakespearean Insult Machine is your friend.

@YouJustDoYou, the whole "Karen" is offensive in a different way.

It's used to label and shut women down when they dare to express their opinion rather than have an intelligent conversation and/or debate.

Personally, I think it says more about the user than the person on the other side.

X-post with @DrSbaitso, but yes. What they said

it's...true though. I guess fact offends. ah well