Offensive terms / genuine question

[artquejtion]

On another thread people find the term 'Irish twin' offensive, I am Irish, born and bred there, and am one of those 'offensive terms' , but I don't find it offensive at all, never even realised it could be construed as offensive until I joined Mumsnet. I have lots of Irish friends and relatives who either refer to themselves as 'offensive term' or refer to their kids as that.

I am really curious as to why it is offensive, is it because of the tradition of large Irish families in the past ? therefore seen as racist or something?.

Is it only offensive if the close in birth children are not Irish ?

Genuine question, no flaming pls. Mods delete if deemed an inappropriate thread.

I love the phrase Irish twins- I love the observational humour in it. I'd not use it though, for fear of offence.

I think it's a shame we lose some rich historical language to fear of offence, though.

Some phrases are only used to put down and criticise people- like 'Karen'. There is no way in which that word is used that's not insulting. (Obviously unless referring to a woman called Karen). Irish twins, in contrast, isn't used pejoratively.

@picklemewalnuts

I love the phrase Irish twins- I love the observational humour in it. I'd not use it though, for fear of offence.

I think it's a shame we lose some rich historical language to fear of offence, though.

Some phrases are only used to put down and criticise people- like 'Karen'. There is no way in which that word is used that's not insulting. (Obviously unless referring to a woman called Karen). Irish twins, in contrast, isn't used pejoratively.

It is used pejoratively. You might love it but it is rooted in prejudice about the feckless, animalistic Irish Catholic.

My family are from both sides of the border, both sides of the religious divide and I can assure you the Orange side didn't mean it nicely when they used the term. My mother certainly didn't think it was meant nicely and she was put down enough by her family for marrying a Catholic, having two children before her 2nd anniversary only confirmed their prejudice.

It’s a word used to try and keep women quiet.

That's it in a nutshell. The negative stereotypes exist to frighten women into behaving: don't stand up to me, or you'll be a horrible screeching KAREN.

Unbelievable how anyone could think that they're being free thinkers for perpetuating the latest incarnation of one of the oldest misogynistic stereotypes on the planet. But then terms like Karen weren't invented to make people clever.

I think it's ok to say it about yourself, or your own family. as in My brother and I are Irish twins. But I would hesitate to use it about another family.

Agree about ''Karen''. It's such a ''shut up middle aged woman''.

In 30 years it'll be Zoe or Amelia.

@ancientgran and that's why I wouldn't use it. However it isn't ONLY used in that way, as many many Irish families on this thread have told us.

It isn't a slur, it can be used as a slur.

Unlike 'Karen', which is always a slur.

I didn't even know what the term meant when I saw it on the other thread and naively assumed it meant actual twins from Ireland until this thread appeared. I've just googled it to discover the actual meaning and yes, it is probably an outdated, mildly offensive term. A lot of offensive terms stem from outdated views from the past. When I was a child there was a saying "Play the white man" meaning "play fair." Nobody thought of it as racist at the time but with hindsight it is horribly racist and deeply offensive on so many levels and it would be really shocking to hear someone use that phrase today.

If you are intelligent enough to think of a way of expressing yourself that doesn't rely on lazy racism or sexism, it is hard to see why you wouldn't.

Actually, the N word brings up the argument which I think also applies to Irish Twins.

If a black person chooses to reclaim the N word (as happens often these days) and calls themself that, whilst I may still feel uncomfortable or dislike the word, that’s their choice and right. It would be very arrogant of me to say it’s unacceptable. It’s very different if a white person uses the N word. I’d argue that it’s also not ok for a black person to assume every black person should be ok with it, whilst also feeling that if a black individual chooses to refer to themselves as N, it’s also really not ok for other people of any race to tell them they can’t. It’s never ok as an insult.

And that’s similar to how I feel about Irish Twins. Non Irish people shouldn’t use it. Irish people should feel free to use it affectionately within their own families and communities if they so wish, as for many Irish people, living in Ireland it’s as commonly used as “raining cats and dogs”
or “the grass is always greener” and non-offensive to them. I’m strongly of the opinion that if an Irish Irish Twin happily referred to themselves as such, it would be sheer arrogance for me to tell them they were no longer allowed to have that as part of their identity.

It’s so sad to see how that very interesting thread was derailed. The poster clearly wasn’t aware a minority saw it as offensive (and was later confirmed to be Irish herself), used it in an understandable context and there’s now pages of posters getting into an argument about whether it’s an offensive term or not even though it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread at all.

Wasn’t that exactly the question from the OP? Understanding who sees it as offensive and why, and isn’t that the question that is being answered?

Galway girls are referred to as having blue eyes black hair and pale skin. Also heard once of certain hair colour Donegal red

@Lifeaintalwaysempty

Wasn’t that exactly the question from the OP? Understanding who sees it as offensive and why, and isn’t that the question that is being answered?

The other thread the OP of this thread started this one about had nothing to do with Irish Twins. It was about getting jilted and a poster made a reference to “Irish Twin” family members, where one sister’s wedding went ahead and the other ones didn’t. Then a couple of posters told them they were being offensive, most Irish posters chimed in to disagree and then it descended into pages and pages of spatting and anecdotes about Irish Twins which had nothing to do with the thread at all.

I guess some hear I-Ts as wry mild self-deprecation & others hear deep rooted prejudice.

I hate hearing people of colour use the N-word. It adds nothing of benefit to any conversation.

@Sandgrown1970

Actually, the N word brings up the argument which I think also applies to Irish Twins.

If a black person chooses to reclaim the N word (as happens often these days) and calls themself that, whilst I may still feel uncomfortable or dislike the word, that’s their choice and right. It would be very arrogant of me to say it’s unacceptable. It’s very different if a white person uses the N word. I’d argue that it’s also not ok for a black person to assume every black person should be ok with it, whilst also feeling that if a black individual chooses to refer to themselves as N, it’s also really not ok for other people of any race to tell them they can’t. It’s never ok as an insult.

And that’s similar to how I feel about Irish Twins. Non Irish people shouldn’t use it. Irish people should feel free to use it affectionately within their own families and communities if they so wish, as for many Irish people, living in Ireland it’s as commonly used as “raining cats and dogs”
or “the grass is always greener” and non-offensive to them. I’m strongly of the opinion that if an Irish Irish Twin happily referred to themselves as such, it would be sheer arrogance for me to tell them they were no longer allowed to have that as part of their identity.

It’s so sad to see how that very interesting thread was derailed. The poster clearly wasn’t aware a minority saw it as offensive (and was later confirmed to be Irish herself), used it in an understandable context and there’s now pages of posters getting into an argument about whether it’s an offensive term or not even though it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread at all.

Your argument doesn't really hold up. If black people can use the N word then the logical argument would be that siblings born within a 12 month period should be allowed to call themselves Irish Twins, not all Irish people using it.

[quote picklemewalnuts]@ancientgran and that's why I wouldn't use it. However it isn't ONLY used in that way, as many many Irish families on this thread have told us.

It isn't a slur, it can be used as a slur.

Unlike 'Karen', which is always a slur.[/quote]
But why would someone use a term that is inaccurate (they aren't twins) that is based on prejudice and will offend?

On the other thread there was no need to say the siblings were "Irish Twins" would it have somehow been less upsetting for the jilted sister if she was 53 weeks younger/older? It was pointless so why use it?

I've never heard of Irish twins.
I'm of Irish Catholic heritage.
All the children in my family are close in age, and, yes, the same school year has happened.

On the other thread there was no need to say the siblings were "Irish Twins" would it have somehow been less upsetting for the jilted sister if she was 53 weeks younger/older? It was pointless so why use it?

Seeing as it was me that used it, innocently as you were the first person who I’d ever come across taking offence at it, I’d argue that for my cousin it did make a difference. They’d done everything together due to the tiny age difference, from being in the same school class to double dating, planning their weddings together (at the exact same venue as it happened as it was the only one in the village) and were due to get married a month apart. They’d been a foursome with their fiancées and due to the 10 month age gap most people spent all their lives comparing them and assuming they had been twins. It would have made a difference if my jilted cousin hadn’t been through everything involved in getting married with someone her identity was so clearly linked with and tied to. It was a case of so near but so far. Having done everything together, there was a natural separation as one was married now and had the emotional intimacy she had with her sister, with her groom while the other was dumped and alone. Then childless when, maybe naively but they were young women, they’d hoped to have children close in age and just as close as they’d been. It was very similar to the kind of bond actual twins would have had and the grief and loss they might expect from going very different ways having always felt so aligned.

If it makes YOU feel better, I feel absolutely shit that the other OPs thread was ruined. Consider me well and truly taught.

Well you take offence quite easily yourself.

Why not say they were close in age, they aren't twins so that added nothing, people thinking they were twins when they were kids was irrelevant as they aren't kids.

You don't need to be close in age to be close to a sibling, out of my 4 the two who are closest have an age gap of 17 years. They are much closer than I am to my sibling who is 50 weeks older than me.

I didn't get nasty with you, I didn't use capitals with you, I pointed out that it is offensive, I assumed you didn't know and that you probably didn't deliberately want to say something offensive but who knows. As to the other thread maybe if you'd just said, "I never knew that." It wouldn't have ruined anything.

I'd never heard of Irish twins before this thread. The word I struggle with is queer. It was a slur the whole time I grew up and now reclaimed still makes me feel very uncomfortable.

The thing I really dislike though is people reclaiming words but no one apart from them is allowed to say it. Either a word is acceptable and acceptable to all or it's unacceptable and shouldn't be said by anyone. There shouldn't be language that only some people are allowed to use IMO.

Yes queer is a strange one. There is a zoom meeting at my son's school on how to be a supportive parent to a lgbtq+/- child and two of the mothers drafted in for this talk describe themselv3s as queer allies.
I wont be tining in for that one tbh.

Ps tal45 i agree, it's confusing