Offensive terms / genuine question

[artquejtion]

On another thread people find the term 'Irish twin' offensive, I am Irish, born and bred there, and am one of those 'offensive terms' , but I don't find it offensive at all, never even realised it could be construed as offensive until I joined Mumsnet. I have lots of Irish friends and relatives who either refer to themselves as 'offensive term' or refer to their kids as that.

I am really curious as to why it is offensive, is it because of the tradition of large Irish families in the past ? therefore seen as racist or something?.

Is it only offensive if the close in birth children are not Irish ?

Genuine question, no flaming pls. Mods delete if deemed an inappropriate thread.

it's not misogynist because it's not against "all women", it's against one certain type.of woman who, over and over and over a d over again, perpetuates racist domineering behaviour,and sadly it's that name that has become synonymous with that. There's also a male term, Kevin, for the men who do it, but typically it's American white women of a certain type, age, and background who, sadly, have prolificaly emphasised the prejudice. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Shrug.

What’s true? That all women named Karen are bolshy and aggressive and their opinions don’t count?

Somewhat ironic that after the “jilted” thread was so spectacularly derailed by people getting irate about the use of “Irish Twins”, the “Irish Twins” thread is getting derailed by the whole “Karen” thing .

@YouJustDoYou, certainly living up (or should that be down?) to my view of the people who use "Karen". Thank you for proving the point 👍

But that's not what we're here to discuss so. Moving on

There's a term often used by the gardening fraternity which is 'Irish cuttings' - basically cuttings taken from the base of a plant, and which already have roots on them. I have no idea why they are called that.

Black Irish? My daughter has the family colouring, very pale skin, really dark hair and eyebrows, blue eyes. She probably looks like many of her Irish grandmothers. Is the term allowed, or would modern people misunderstand?

I’d assume “black Irish” meant somebody who was Irish and had some African ancestry? Does it mean something else?

@YouJustDoYou

it's not misogynist because it's not against "all women", it's against one certain type.of woman who, over and over and over a d over again, perpetuates racist domineering behaviour,and sadly it's that name that has become synonymous with that. There's also a male term, Kevin, for the men who do it, but typically it's American white women of a certain type, age, and background who, sadly, have prolificaly emphasised the prejudice. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Shrug.

Oh bollocks. Think. It is absolutely misogynistic because it perpetuates a misogynistic stereotype. And I'm sick of this ridiculous idea that it's not because you're one of the enlightened ones who uses it only against the ones who REALLY ARE like that. First of all, you have no idea what they're like because they're on the Internet. Second, pulling on misogynistic stereotypes is misogynistic behaviour. Third, you don't use it as an accurate label, you use it like everyone else who uses it does: to try to shut women up by making them afraid of being lumped into the stereotype. Karen is any woman you want to shut down with your ignorant sexist tripe because that's what the term is for: shut up, woman, or you'll be a KAREN. And no, it isn't ok if a woman internalises this misogyny. It's still sexist and stupid behaviour by someone too ignorant or lazy to think up words.

The fact that you're telling us it's not misogynistic while telling us it's mainly women who act this way just shows the ignorance and sexism inherent in using these terms. You're not edgy and politically incorrect, you haven't uncovered some new truth, you've just fallen on the latest incarnation of an ancient anti-woman stereotype and showing yourself up at every turn.

And don't embarrass yourself further by trying to make anyone believe that "Kevin" is anywhere near as well known or widely used.

So, are we Irish allowed to find it offensive, that a term we view as affectionate, is being classed as offensive by non Irish ?

@TeaAndStrumpets

Black Irish? My daughter has the family colouring, very pale skin, really dark hair and eyebrows, blue eyes. She probably looks like many of her Irish grandmothers. Is the term allowed, or would modern people misunderstand?

I have never heard ther term, or anyone called 'Black Irish' in Ireland.

Oh dear. As well as “Irish Twins”, my grandparents and older relatives also use “Black Irish”. On one side, our relatives name directly relates to Spain, even though we’ve traced back our ancestors as being in Ireland for hundreds of years as far as records begin. Our family legend is the whole “jumped ship at the Spanish Armada” trope and is usually used to explain why my Grandad and some of my uncles and great uncles had jet black hair and eyes and quite tanned olive coloured skin in the summers. Half our family are pale pale white, red hair and green eyes and the other half a mix of the tanned/black hair and eyes and pale with black hair, light eyes etc.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/who-were-the-black-irish.amp

I wouldn't use the term 'Irish Twin'. I'm English, it's not my place to comment on someone's family using a phrase which stereotypes people and given the history of oppression by the British state towards our Irish neighbours could be experienced as offensive. Irish people using the term is completely different.

@NameChangedForThisFeb21

That is a really interesting link, thank you ! I have never heard of that phrase. My dad has black hair, piercing blue eyes, tanned skin.

Supposedly, the 'typical' Irish look is black hair, blue eyes and milk white skin.

I wouldn't use it. I also wouldn't say "Chinese whispers" or "Dutch courage"

I don't find that offensive either. People did used to have children much closer in age.

I find ''having a paddy'' kind of offensive though, and you'd only ever hear that in the UK, but British people on mumsnet have told me I am wrong to find that offensive, so............

The whole concept of black irish is nonsense. It came from America anyway, when 'white' was a class with rights. To vote, to own, to have bank accounts, to hold certain jobs etc.

The Irish got around this by forming parishes and working to meet the needs of their people themselves.

I am Irish and my mum's family have brown hair and brown eyes and when she is in Spain people assume she's Spanish, but this variance in colouring occurs in the UK too, so the term Black Irish is meaningless in any genetic sense.

It's just variance. And confusion.

The Americans were at one point very Anglo Saxon and when the Irish first emigrated there they had no rights. And the ''whites'' (the elite) wanted to hold on to their position.

I think it’s within the context of Ireland’s historical relationship with the rest of the world - ie being battered by the Brits and the Church, and providing emigrant labour to the English speaking world.

IE it’s not offensive as such, but it brings up feelings of an era where the Irish were regarded as ‘less than’ Brits or US wasps, and under the damaging yoke of strict RC practice.

Re Black Irish - people also used to call dark haired/eyed people black in the UK, eg king Charles 1 was referred to as a ‘black man’ so I think the black Irish Armada thing is part of that.

Black people in the Uk in that early modern era were often called Moors.

I'm Irish, I find the Irish twin phrase pretty gross. And don't get me started on "throwing a paddy" which is used liberally on MN

Have never heard either of those used in Ireland myself.

I don’t find it offensive -lm Irish and my family is full of Irish twins and non-Irish twins. Can’t see any of my family being offended either

But lm sure it’s a personal thing. For example there was a debate of a different thread yesterday about use of the word yds. Personally l would never use that phrase. For me it’s up there with p* and ngg**. I would never dream of saying either of them -l can’t face typing them either so went down the asterisk route

As someone said upthread I think whilst it can be used affectionately, it’s also been used to make a joke at the expense of the Irish, but stupid, get things wrong, have too many kids etc. When I first heard it, it was in the latter context unfortunately.

I'm Irish and don't find it offensive. We use it as a bit of a joke in our family but it would be hard for us to call it a stereotype when we really do have some "irish twins" in our generation. My younger sister just missed out on being in my year at school. A few of my cousins were either in the same year as a sibling or narrowly missed out. We were the first generation with smaller families (my grandparents had 9 and 10 children, amongst my aunts the biggest families have 4). It's changed again with our generation so most of my cousins have a gap of a couple of years between their children with 2-3 children in total being the norm so I suppose it a few years it really will be an old stereotype.

@YouJustDoYou

it's not misogynist because it's not against "all women", it's against one certain type.of woman who, over and over and over a d over again, perpetuates racist domineering behaviour,and sadly it's that name that has become synonymous with that. There's also a male term, Kevin, for the men who do it, but typically it's American white women of a certain type, age, and background who, sadly, have prolificaly emphasised the prejudice. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Shrug.

I was called a Karen for daring to tell a man not to push in front of me in a queue. It’s a word used to try and keep women quiet.

@PumpingPamela

I think using it when you're Irish and it applies to your family is entirely different from a non Irish person using it.

I wouldn't use it personally. I saw the other thread and did raise an eyebrow as it wasn't clear that she was Irish herself (I guessed that she probably was, so didn't get too het up about it).

I pointed it out, I am Irish and 50 weeks younger than my sibling. I do find it offensive but didn't tell anyone off. I pointed out it is offensive. If people don't know then fair enough but once they know it is offensive then there isn't an excuse.

@artquejtion

So, are we Irish allowed to find it offensive, that a term we view as affectionate, is being classed as offensive by non Irish ?

The fact that you don't find it offensive doesn't mean it isn't offensive to other Irish people.

My husband sometimes refers to himself by the N word but I wouldn't advise anyone else to do it.