'Nurses are well paid for the job'

[Letsallscreamatthesistene]

An MP said this today, in responce to the debate surrounding the 1% pay rise. Im a nurse, and I know what I think (that the pay is ok, not terrible but not fantastic), im really interested to know what others think?

"As for the comments of nurses deserving more, THIS is where it gets emotive. Yes, medics are doing huge things for us and our loved ones, but unfortunately, salaries are hugely determined by supply and demand, not on how deserving someone's role is."

In a purely capitalist system yes, but here we as citizens can make choices if we want to.

I think starting salary is pretty good. But the pay progression is terrible, especially for a job that is so important and often very tough. I’m supportive of a much higher pay rise for nurses this year. The government has been able to waste cash on all sorts over the past year, including dodgy contracts with friends. Least we could do is give the nurses a decent pay rise.

"Even now, being on your feet for a whole shift is hard going and I’m only 43. I’m not overweight either."

I'm your age and couldn't do a job standing up all day either. I really pity middle aged people working in shops, pubs, etc., must be really tiring and for very little money.

I don't think they do no. But my god I definitely think the auxillary/ nursing assistants don't get paid enough, they are bloody amazing and only get a band 2

I was in awe of the band 5 nurses who worked on the neonatal ward where my daughter spent the first 3 months of her life after she was born 14 weeks prematurely.

They saved her life when she stopped breathing and her oxygen levels desaturated more times than I can count. The stress of working in a bay where they are responsible for the complex needs of not one but four fragile lives is more than worth the salary alone, then add into the mix the emotional intelligence needed to build relationships of trust with fraught and shellshocked parents, the stamina needed to be hyper-alert throughout 12-hour shifts constantly alternating between day and night patterns, plus those horrendous days when the babies in their care don't pull through ...

I made more than 24k in my 20s sitting on my arse in an office 9-5 typing numbers into a spreadsheet. Band 5 nurses are most certainly NOT well paid for the job!!

As for the comments of nurses deserving more, THIS is where it gets emotive. Yes, medics are doing huge things for us and our loved ones, but unfortunately, salaries are hugely determined by supply and demand, not on how deserving someone's role is

We don’t live in a purely capitalist economy though. The rich bankers who crash the economy and were bailed out for their gambling should have shown you that. And it was gambling, and they continue to gamble and keep the gains for themselves. We don’t need them, there’s no “demand” for hedge funds but they’re paid a fucking fortune.

Supply and demand is what the rich people tell us and use as an excuse to hold down wages for the rest of us.

This is what happens when an industry is almost completely publicly funded. I think NHS needs to be overhauled. There should be better private health insurance which is allowed to overlap with the public health system. That way more people could afford private, and they would not need to rely on public health care. NHS hospitals could also do some private work which would enable them to fund better equipment.

Similar to how Australia does it I think.

Then those who genuinely can't afford health cover are able to rely on a properly funded health care system.

Medical professionals can choose to work in public or private, or a mixture of the two. The Public Health Service would need to offer better pay to retain the medical professionals but could do so because they need to find less of them.

It's not terrible pay, and it's a secure profession, with training that can take you all sorts of places if you want it to. So there's lots about it that's attractive, but given that the NHS struggles to retain and recruit, it's clearly not attractive enough (otherwise people would be flocking to the profession and hardly anyone would want to leave until they retired).

I don't know if they really need to increase pay as such, though they probably do - especially in more expensive places to live - but from what I've read from nurses I know and on forums like these, they need to improve working conditions, in particular increasing staffing and have better people focused management. And that will probably cost more than a decent pay rise.

For the job qualified nurses do they are underpaid.
They have taken on roles belonging to Drs, OTs, speech therapists, pharmacists, ordering technicians, housekeepers, infection control and others.

If you've never nursed you don't have a clue. The current pay is an insult.
Nurses had no raise last year. It was scheduled that nurses should get 2.2% it was within the budget for this year.
After Covid an offer of 1% is unacceptable.

Just out of interest when did mumsnet become a forum where nurses can just get slated.

Will a post discussing teacher's pay be equally allowed?

@Torvean to be fair, a post about teachers’ pay would be instantly derailed by some shit about long summer holidays.

MN has some sort of weird jealousy about public sector workers. I mean, if it is so amazing, people can retrain! It’s not like there are no jobs. But strangely posters prefer to carp on about their taxes being spent on our wages when we ought to do it for free.

[quote Changechangychange]@Torvean to be fair, a post about teachers’ pay would be instantly derailed by some shit about long summer holidays.

MN has some sort of weird jealousy about public sector workers. I mean, if it is so amazing, people can retrain! It’s not like there are no jobs. But strangely posters prefer to carp on about their taxes being spent on our wages when we ought to do it for free.[/quote]
The other day there was a post slating nurses. Mainly saying they're crap especially now they have degrees it was a really long post.

Now there's one on how nurses should be grateful for a 1% pay rise.

Does mumsnet realise that psychologists are deployed to Covid wards to support nurses with the trauma, it's been going on for over a YEAR now.
Working in pandemics is not a normal part of the job.
So anyone saying suck it up just shows you're an embicile.

You'd think mumsnet might want to show their support, it is after all a female dominant job.

Anything on teachers is removed.

It seems nurses are fair game. Even after this ,
Shame on you.

Of course when you compare it to certain jobs...we do deserve more, but I don't think it is a terrible wage.

I am a newly qualified midwife. In this year being band 5 in London (with a fair amount of overtime) I have managed to earn about £43k due to unsociable hours payments, bank shifts and the London weighting.

I have just moved to band 6 this month, I will be on £37k (with the London weighting) before any unsociable hours payments or bank shifts which will add on a significant amount.

Midwives have a different career structure. Its not the same.

Oh and sick pay, which is a weight off my shoulders...not that I have needed it but a relief to know it is there. Plus the pension.

But to be fair most people don't go into these roles for the money....I was on £35k before I retrained and that was 7 years ago, I would have been on a lot more by now, but I chose the job I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing for the job satisfaction and my happiness.

[quote AlrightTreacle]@Savethewhales

"They want more nurses there is many hcas that would jump over to become a nurse but poor grades and having to go back to college for over a year before even stepping foot inside a university to train is what puts them off. They should go back to how nurses were trained years ago, rather than piddling about and getting those not even qualified into debt before they've even graduated"

They have gone back to how nurses were trained years ago; the current "nursing associate" system is pretty similar to the state enrolled nurse system. And you don't need to go back to college or get into debt to do it.[/quote]
And the band 5 is still having to care for her 6-8 patients, supervise student nurses, mentor/preceptor newly qualified nurses, over see the csw/hca and now support the band 4 as they can't do the whole job such as ivs etc. Along with the usual ward audits, paperwork, patient care etc.

So now a middle band 5 is doing more of a band 6s job on the ward but without the pay.

I’m pretty sure in Canada the starting salary for registered nurses is closer to 35k GBP. 24k sounds exceptionally low.

The salary in relation to the actual job role and duties, is awful.

Working short staffed most shifts. Not because of staff sickness but because the ward budget doesn't allow it.

So there could easily be a team of 2 nurses and a nursing assistant to 15-20 patients (2 teams on a ward of 30-40 patients).

One nurse's duty at start of shift is to do the drug round for their patients, plus blood pressure etc for them all. The other nurse is on the ward round, so "off the floor" so to speak.

The NA is busy trying to help people wash, dress, get out of bed, change the beds and hand out breakfast, help feed patients. Impossible task for 1 person, very difficult even for 2 and very time consuming.

By the time the 2 nurses have finished what they're doing, they all pitch in with the NA duties.

By the time that's done, it's another drug round and observations for one nurse. Second nurse is trying to write up notes from ward round. NA is handing out lunch, helping feed, taking patients to toilet.

After nurses duties are done, they pitch in with the NA. And repeat, for 12 hours.

All well and good. But what if a patient is crying out in pain and needs morphine? Takes 2 nurses off the floor to get from controlled drug cupboard, count the drugs, sign through book, both witness being given. If a patient is violent? Cardiac arrest? New patient admitted? CT scan needing arranged? Patient vomiting? Patient falls? Each one of these things (and most of them happen multiple times on a shift) takes a member of staff away from the team for a while. And the paperwork involved with this!!!

Then there's phone calls from relatives. Countless calls, some taking 5+ minutes.

It's constant, absolutely constant.

I worked on a surgical receiving ward as a newly qualified nurse, and my feet didn't hit the ground for 2 years. I quite literally ran from one end of the ward to another as there just wasn't time to walk. My stress levels were through the roof, and I'd leave every shift upset because I didn't feel that I have my patients the standard of care they deserved. I done everything that needed doing. But I had no time to chat with them, properly reassure them or build a rapport.

I'm now in the private sector in occupational health, 15 years qualified, and earn £35k for practically no stress at all. 3x 12hr shifts a week.

I'm absolutely furious at how the NHS nurses are treated and disrespected. I lost count of how many times we saved a junior doctor's ass, and helped them work out drug calculations. I even had to tell a junior doctor what the standard dose of paracetamol was. And don't get me started on how many times a doctor / physio etc will shout you in to the room because the patient has vomited / spilled a drink then walk out without even so much as handing you a tissue

I could go on and on. But to answer the OPs question....no, nurses are not paid enough for the job they do. Certainly not newly qualified.

Let's face it, anyone going into nursing or teaching knows they won't get rich. They also know they will have job security and a decent pension. I think both nursing and teaching gives job satisfaction as you know you are making a difference. If you want to get rich, you would choose a different career. 1 percent is not much but it is more than teachers, civil servants or police will get. If we can get out of Covid quickly our economy should bounce back quicker and maybe next year 2 percent will be on offer. Many in the private sector are not getting any pay rise, some have had to take a pay cut and others lost their jobs.

Poster up thread says she’s a newly qualified band 5 midwife but about to become a band 6. That says it all ! In nursing in areas outside the s/e that kind of career progression is unheard of.
And the number of top band 7’s on this thread who say they too aren’t paid enough are surely joking. Most of our 7s hardly do any clinical shifts any more. In fact none at all. Yes meetings galore, paperwork, coordination etc but they all get their breaks, have their little office sanctuary to escape the hustle and bustle. Tbh if I’d have wanted I could have aimed for this but I like the patient contact, I just hate the fact that generally we are run ragged and constantly overwhelmed with yet more paperwork and policies, tick box exercises.

@Schonerlebnis

Poster up thread says she’s a newly qualified band 5 midwife but about to become a band 6. That says it all ! In nursing in areas outside the s/e that kind of career progression is unheard of. And the number of top band 7’s on this thread who say they too aren’t paid enough are surely joking. Most of our 7s hardly do any clinical shifts any more. In fact none at all. Yes meetings galore, paperwork, coordination etc but they all get their breaks, have their little office sanctuary to escape the hustle and bustle. Tbh if I’d have wanted I could have aimed for this but I like the patient contact, I just hate the fact that generally we are run ragged and constantly overwhelmed with yet more paperwork and policies, tick box exercises.

Midwives automatically move to band 6 on completion of a competency/preceptor period. It isnt the same as nurses.

I will be completely honest and say I can't give an opinion on the pay/structure of the nhs as I don't know enough about it. But, I also work in the public sector, in social care.

The sad fact is, we have no money. When the economy has been closed for so long, the financial impact is massive, when the govt have to recoup that money, then public services are the first and hardest hit. We are already having to look at services we can cut/move/do without and it is brutal.
But due to being locked down for so long and poor financial choices by the government we are trillions in debt. Maybe when we have recovered economically things will improve, but for now I am not sure where the money could realistically come from.

@LivinLaVidaLoki

I will be completely honest and say I can't give an opinion on the pay/structure of the nhs as I don't know enough about it. But, I also work in the public sector, in social care.

The sad fact is, we have no money. When the economy has been closed for so long, the financial impact is massive, when the govt have to recoup that money, then public services are the first and hardest hit. We are already having to look at services we can cut/move/do without and it is brutal.
But due to being locked down for so long and poor financial choices by the government we are trillions in debt. Maybe when we have recovered economically things will improve, but for now I am not sure where the money could realistically come from.

Don’t hear you questioning where the billions are coming from for failed track and trace, HS2 and so on.

Part of the reason we’re in the situation with hospitals being overwhelmed and lockdowns are >40,000 nurse vacancies. There aren’t the people to nurse you when you feel ill. We’ve had a decade of cutbacks. We lose more staff year on year that we recruit. Those leaving are the highly skilled experienced staff. You get what you pay for.

@caringcarer

Let's face it, anyone going into nursing or teaching knows they won't get rich. They also know they will have job security and a decent pension. I think both nursing and teaching gives job satisfaction as you know you are making a difference. If you want to get rich, you would choose a different career. 1 percent is not much but it is more than teachers, civil servants or police will get. If we can get out of Covid quickly our economy should bounce back quicker and maybe next year 2 percent will be on offer. Many in the private sector are not getting any pay rise, some have had to take a pay cut and others lost their jobs.

This is naive bullshit.

Nurses don’t get decent pay in good times or bad times. Conservatives view us as a drain on the public purse. Their interests will always be to spaff public money on cronies, donors and vanity projects. The supposedly non existent ‘magic money tree’ sprouts into a bloody forest when they want it to.

@Onandoff
Don’t hear you questioning where the billions are coming from for failed track and trace, HS2 and so on

Its a long list of complete wastage by the govt which is why I said in my post poor financial choices by the govt

Many in the private sector are not getting any pay rise, some have had to take a pay cut and others lost their jobs.

If we follow this logic then, if the private sector gets pay cuts, everyone should get a pay cut.